A little while back, I expressed myself inelegantly on Twitter. Specifically, I admitted to having a crush on Emma Watson, erstwhile Hermione. In response, fellow Ordinary Sam indicated that perhaps there was something a wee bit unseemly about a fellow of my age expressing such feelings for a young woman of Ms. Watson’s tender years. (I believe his exact words were “party foul.” I looked for the exchange, but it has since been buried under a gigantic pile of frantic election Tweets.)
I realized that I had misspoken (or, perhaps, mis-Tweeted.) My confusion stemmed from that phase a while ago, when every dude in the country seemed to have a “man-crush” on George Clooney. I did not interpret that to mean that a surprising number of guys had suddenly become bi-curious, but rather thought Clooney was aces and wanted to hang out with him and be his best buddy and carouse on the banks of Lake Como. Similarly, I have precisely zero desire to know Ms. Watson in the biblical sense. However, I really do want to sit around a Paris atelier with her while various fashion functionaries run around bringing her impossibly expensive party dresses to try on, while the two of us sit there gossiping about Kenneth Branagh. (I have a long-standing crush on Mr. Branagh, of the more commonly-understood variety.)
In other words, I want to bask in the glory of being chic and glamorous, and Ms. Watson just seems to have those qualities in spades.
But maybe I was wrong! Maybe I misunderstood the whole notion of a “man-crush.” Maybe Clooney did manage the nudge the needle on a great many men’s Kinsey scores.
All of this came to mind when I posted about Amy Acker a couple of weeks ago, and had this exchange in the comments with Burt:
Me: I may be gay as a tree full of hummingbirds, but I must admit that I think Ms Acker is incredibly nice to look at.
Burt: “If I were straight, I’d totally go for it with Amy Acker!” Except the Doc is not nearly crude enough to express it that way. I, however, am willing to go there for a cheap laugh. A chuckle, even.
And I’ll pre-empt the follow-up question, too. Colin Farrell.
And so, that’s this week’s Question. Which of you is confident enough in his or sexuality to announce for whom they’d consider a brief switcheroo? Burt’s thrown the gauntlet down. (And I can’t argue with his choice, either.) Anyone else comfortable enough to say “Yeah, I’d give him/her a shot”?
(I think I’m already on record somewhere as saying I would at least give it the good old college try [almost certainly unsuccessfully] with “Four Weddings and a Funeral”-era Kristen Scott Thomas. While Ms. Acker is incredibly beautiful and seems like she would be nice about it when Things Didn’t Go Right, I’d rather spend my time with her chatting about Neil Patrick Harris [with whom she is good friends, and on whom I have another crush in the commonly-understood sense].)
* Any of you sports fans want to guess why I chose this title?
Because Mantle was a great switch hitter.
As far as the other question goes, I don’t know that I have an answer to the actual question, cause of the whole brain wiring thing.
But – on a semi-related note, that perhaps gets to the heart of it – if I could go back in time to my days of being 21 and single single and spend a week in Barbados with my brain transplanted in the body, style, voice and utter coolness of a young Pierce Brosnan, that would not suck.
If Tod can fess up to that, I’ll admit that 1984-era Rob Lowe was a fine looking young man…
And there we have it
Dang, Emma Watson is totally mine.
There’s an old comedy routine with Jack Burns as an evangelist and Avery Schreiber as a Jewish cabbie overwhelmed by the spirit:
B: Do you believe?
S: I believe!
B: Can you feel it?
S; I can feel it!
B: Do you want to to be born again?
S: I want to be born again!
B: Are you washed in the blood of the lamb?
S: (silence)
B: I said, are you washed in the blood of the lamb?
S: I can’t even imagine such a thing.
I’d go straight for Keira Knightly.
I’ve never seen a specific man that has made me think in such a way. There are definitely men I’ve recognized as really good looking, but none that ever tipped the scale in a sexual way.
However, at the risk of threadjacking, I want to explore Sam’s response to you. Suppose you did have a physical, sexual attraction to Ms. Watson. The grown-up Ms. Watson pictured (not the 14-year-old version from the first ‘Harry Potter’ movie). Is that really a “party foul”? This is something I’ve thought about as I’ve noticed my and my friends’ sexual preferences shift as we move into our late 20’s. Ms. Watson is 22. Now, there are lots of reasons I wouldn’t be interested in dating a 22-year-old (among them the fact that I’m married to a wonderful 28-year-old). But would there be something wrong with me finding a 22-year-old woman sexually attractive? Can I control this attraction any more than Russell can “control” his attraction to men?
Now, I’m not trying to get all NAMBLA here. I do think that there are sexual attractions that exist that demonstrate a certain perversion of sorts, those which acting upon should be discouraged to say the least. But is a 30-something man finding a woman in her young 20’s such? I don’t necessarily think so. I could see particular scenarios where it would be (e.g., an attraction to the perception of “innocence” and the desire to corrupt it) but sometimes a pretty face is a pretty face, no?
Really what I’m asking is, what is the difference between Sam calling “party foul” on his perception of Russell’s sexual attraction to a 22-year-old woman and a certain segment of our population calling “party foul” on Russell’s sexual attraction to a man of any age?
I think it has to do with the age at which she was introduced to the public, and my age at the time.
She was a young girl when she first became famous, whereas I was already well into my 20s. My first impressions of her are as a girl, even if she’s now quite obviously a gorgeous young woman. It’s similar to how skeeved out I got when the Olsen twins were on the cusp of being “legal” and seeing some pop culture “I Love the 80s” talking heads show on (I think) VH1 with all these dudes salivating about the prospect of being able to lust after them openly. One guy (an actor from “The Sopranos,” IIRC) reacted to the question with visible disgust and something along the lines of “they’re my daughter’s age!” which restored my faith in humanity a bit.
I got to “know” her as a little girl, and it seems a wee bit Humbert-esque to ogle her now.
Conversely, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with my mentioning, say, how cute I used to find Wil Wheaton on Star Trek: TNG. He’s just a little bit older than me, and I was totally smitten with him when I was younger. Wesley Crusher was probably my first celebrity crush, come to think of it. I related to and felt certain stirrings for that younger Wil as a peer, and referencing it now doesn’t feel off.
Updated to add: Just to clarify, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the age differential between two mature adults. The new movie “Silver Linings Playbook” features a romance between Bradley Cooper (who is my age) and Jennifer Lawrence (who is 22), and nobody seems to be batting an eye. I didn’t have any compunction about expressing a certain kind of admiration for various members of the US Olympic team, since they’re all grown-ups and have been for as long as I’ve been aware of their existence.
As the parent of a 14 year-old I find that I often walk through the living room and see girls on Disney or Nickelodeon and my inner frat boy says hubba-hubba. Then I remember they are probably also fourteen and I feel like I need to go immediately to the confessional and ask for forgiveness. Hollywood is evil that way.
The formula for men lusting after younger female flesh is [( age / 2 ) +7]…
If you’re 20, then a 17-year old is fair game to oogle and hubba over.
If you’re 30, you’re a creep for doing so; stick with ladies age 22 and up.
I have no idea is there exists a similar rule for women and younger men.
And I see the Law of Creepiness was already posted by Alan Scott below.
Damn not scrolling all the way down the entire thread before responding…
That’s the rule for actually dating, though. It’s not creepy that a 50 year old finds a 20 year old hot. The 50 year old still has eyes, right? It’s just creepy if the 50 year old tries to follow through on it, or actually acts like a creep.
And it’s a gender-neutral rule as far as that goes. Certainly it might be odd to see a 50 year old woman dating a 35 year old man, compared to the reverse. But it’s no more creepy.
Interesting perspective. I grew up with Emma Watson so I guess that I am just reaching the point where actors/singers are getting famous and “introduced” to me as children.
That’s an interesting point, Russell. I didn’t watch the HP movies when they came out and didn’t really know who Emma Watson was until later (I still mix her up with Emma Stone because I’m stupid like that). So I was introduced to Watson as an adult and then later went back and saw her in films as a child/teenager.
But think of it this way: No one would fault an 18-year-old for being attracted to another 18-year-old. But we might call “party foul” for a 40-year-old being attracted to an 18-year-old. But is there a reason to expect that 40-year-old’s sexual preferences to have changed as he aged, outside of societal pressures to? I really don’t know the science behind this all. I’m also a *TERRIBLE* judge of age (I tend to lump people into three categories… 10-year-olds, my age, or my parents age… so I might look at someone like Emma Watson and say, “Well, she’s clearly not 10 or my mom’s age so she’s probably my age.”). So, as Mike mentioned, I’ve occasionally caught myself saying, “Man, she’s cute!” to someone who is much younger than I. But I don’t know if we should submit to the societal pressure to go confess.
I’m not really articulating myself here and am probably coming off as someone looking for social acceptance to oggle pre-teens, which couldn’t be further from the truth. I just wonder about the appropriateness of chastising people for who they find attractive (while leaving open the door for chastising people for engaging in exploitive and other unhealthy relationships).
It works in reverse too, a girl my age is not usually attracted to a man of say, George Clooney’s age, but here we are. He’s like 26 years older than or something! Dang you, Hollywood.
I would be in line for a bit of Clooney.
Or a bit of Fry and Laurie…
I’d have a better shot at Laurie, though.
As I’ve already alluded, I certainly still find younger gentlemen attractive.
However, as I’ve gotten older, so too have older guys (which is to say, guys within a ten-year span on either side of my own age) grown more attractive. When I was in my salad days, out until ridiculous hours at clubs and such, I wouldn’t have looked twice at a guy as old as I am now. (Well, not usually. ) But now guys in their 30s and 40s look much more appealing than they did, such that they tend to draw my eye more than the pretty young things.
“But now guys in their 30s and 40s look much more appealing than they did, such that they tend to draw my eye more than the pretty young things.”
I wonder why this is. It is some sort of biological process? Or is it socialization? What makes 30-something Russ look differently at a hot 20-year-old than 2-something Russ? Or, as a friend said once (which is ultimately what got me thinking about this), “Why should I suddenly stop being attracted to college girls just because I graduated?”
I have no idea, Kazzy. All I know is that this one guy was constantly asking me out when I was in college, and he just didn’t do it for me. [Edited to add: He was several years older, had been in the military, and wasn’t the pretty type I favored at the time.] I never went out with him.
If that same guy were to ask me out now (and I were single), I would cancel other plans to go out with him. I look back on having turned him down so often before and want to go back in time and kick my younger self’s ass for passing up such a hot guy.
Consider my eye batted re: Bradley Cooper and Jennifer Lawrence. The standard creepiness rule is Don’t date under (Age / 2 + 7). For all that you can say that there’s nothing wrong with the age differential between two mature adults, a 22 year old doesn’t necessarily count as a “mature adult” when it comes to a relationship with a 37 year old.
Of course, there’s a difference between “acceptable to find attractive” and “acceptable to actually have a romantic relationship with”.
Related aside: neither my boyfriend nor I can remember exactly when we met, but we’re guessing it was when he was 15 and I was 21. Of course, he was just the Dungeon Master’s younger brother who played the Elf Ranger. It was only when we started hanging out again years later than a romantic attraction developed.
I find that story nerdishly adorable. (Says the guy who has just admitted that the first celebrity he had a thing for was Wesley Crusher.)
And I gather Ms. Lawrence’s performance makes the age difference seem not creepy, but I haven’t seen the film so I can’t really say.
Jennifer Lawrence goes to our church when she’s back in town. I’m terrified of how I am going to act if she is at the Christmas service this year. She’s a cutie although only slightly older than my oldest daughter.
well at least someone didn’t hate him! 😉
Lucky! (Get an autograph!)
Jen Lawrence is awesome. Immediately after I saw her in Winter’s Bone I was going “that girl should play Katniss!” I couldn’t have been more happily surprised than seeing that wish granted.
I did find the premise of that Cooper/Lawrence movie a little troubling. I find their attempt to draw me in by using the Eagles in what I KNOW is going to be a crappy romcom even more troubling.
I fear that I’m increasingly coming off as a shill for this movie, but from what I gather it’s actually very good, won lots of awards, has an intelligent director, and is not the crappy romcom you suspect.
I may be dead wrong. When I first saw the commercial, it seemed like a guy’s movie about Philly sports culture, and I was in. I also like Bradley Cooper (I fancy my hair looking like his, even though Zazzy often reminds me that it simply does not). Then I saw it spin off into what seemed like another trope-filled RomCom and I was upset about what I thought was an attempted snookering aimed specifically at me. If it is more than the RomCom, it might be one we check out.
If I may jump in here, I notice both you and Tod stinking from actually answering the question because you can’t find the lust in yourself. Of course not, any more than I’m downloading Colin Farrell movies to, um, enjoy in the privacy of my own home. It requires a leap of imagination to imagine yourself as something you are not. I’m quite sure that were the handsome Mr. Farrell and I alone and blessed with a bottle of fine wine, nothing like that would happen even if he were willing.
I should also add that I’d like to think I’d dress better if I were gay, but chances are I would not.
What I always ask, and maybe Russell can help me understand this, is why many gay men seem to prefer men that are at least marginally effeminate. I feel like if I was switching teams I would want a manly dude, because isn’t that the whole purpose of being gay? You like MEN. I feel like I would want some dude that I could go hunting with and watch him chop wood and then go pound wings and beer for dinner.
This is part of my more broad confusion as to why so many lesbian coworkers of mine seem to be going out of their way to look like a man. I thought lesbians were attracted to women, not women that look like guys.
What I always ask, and maybe Russell can help me understand this, is why many gay men seem to prefer men that are at least marginally effeminate.
Easy. Your impression is based upon a faulty premise.
Do many gay guys like more feminine partners? Sure. Do a great many others prefer the “manly dude” you describe? Yes. *raises hand to indicate membership in said group* I suspect that the latter group vastly outnumbers the former.
So what’s the deal with the sterotypical gay mannerisms? If the vast majority of gay men prefer masculine men, then why do many gay men present themselves in such an unmasculine way?
Well, we’re complex people with complex behaviors, just like everyone. Typically gay men are more at peace with those feminine aspects of themselves than their straight counterparts, and so express those parts of themselves more from time to time. But, just like everyone, we act in certain ways at certain times and different ways at different times, and just because one thing may appeal to any one of us sexually doesn’t mean it dictates how we behave in every situation.
BB,
I wondered as much and read an interesting theory that some gay stereotypes are taken on as a form of signaling behavior. So the “gay lisp” is often taken on, consciously or subconsciously, as a way of identifying as gay or with the gay community. I don’t know how accurate the theory was but I find it interesting.
I also think a great number of “gay stereotypes” are things that many straight men do but they don’t register the same. I dress in a lot of loud and bright colors. And while folks might notice this, they don’t associate it with my sexuality. But if I were gay, I’d likely be described as “flamboyant” even though my attire would remain the same. So I think there is an association thing going on as well… Gay guys with fem characteristics are viewed differently than straight men with the same attributes.
There’s some bayesian probability stuff going on here. When you recognize people who exhibit stereotypical mannerisms as gay, but may not recognize gay people who don’t exhibit those same mannerisms, you’ll come away with an inflated perception of how many gay people act in a stereotypically gay way.
But there’s also a signalling element. If you’re trying to get a date with another guy, it’s harder if you can’t tell who’s straight and who’s gay. Thus gay people will consciously or subconsciously adopt certain mannerisms as a way of playing to the gaydar.
Alan,
Great point. I was trying to get at something kinda-sorta similar below but didn’t say it nearly as well.
“All the gays where pink!”
“What about Barry? He doesn’t wear pink.”
“He’s obviously not REALLY gay.”
“What about Gary? He does wear pink.”
“Closeted. At least.”
Round and round.
Regarding signaling, I read one time about a sophisticated system of handkerchief displays used within the gay community. One pocket meant top, one meant bottom, certain colors indicated certain interests, etc. Was that a real thing? Did folks really use it? As someone who wears bandanas to restrain my non-Bradly-Cooper-esque hair, this might be something worth knowing… 🙂
RE: the handkerchief thing – I don’t remember all the purported codes now, but lace color in your Doc Martens or boots used to serve a similar function in youth subcultures. One color was for gay, one was for “white power” and so on.
I think that all that has mostly faded, and even back then was often contradictory/varied by geographic region and subculture.
The handkerchief thing was real, but before my time. I’m glad I missed it. For one thing, it’s a little on the overt side for me, and removes a little bit of the intrigue of getting to know someone.
For another, some of those handkerchiefs signaled things I find… startling.
The handkerchief thing (which was called ‘flagging’) was definitely a thing back in the day. I think it was big in the late 70s, so I’m not sure any of the league’s gay commenters are old enough to comment on how widespread it was.
Interesting. Thanks for the knowledge.
I do sometimes wonder about the difficulties that come with dating in the LGBTQ world. When I was single, my biggest worry about talking to girls was whether or not they’d like ME, not my entire gender/sex. It’s hard enough fretting over whether the girl you are eyeing will think your cute; it is quote another to fret over whether the girl your eyeing is straight and the possibility that not only might she not be, but she might react very, very negatively (violently, even) if perceived to be.
Hence the appeal of gay bars. You can hit on whomever you want, and the worst that will happen is you get turned down. If the dude is straight and doesn’t want to get hit on by other dudes, that’s his problem, and if he’s uncomfortable then he needs to leave.
As being gay becomes more and more “normal,” more and more straight guys will simply take it as a compliment when a gay guy asks them out, politely decline, and the whole thing will cease to be a big deal.
take it as a compliment when a gay guy asks them out, politely decline, and the whole thing will cease to be a big deal.
This describes 9 out of 10 approaches I got at the gay club where we used to dance. But once or twice the gay guy I was declining got a bit pissy or angry, like I was an interloper or liar or tease, “So what are you doing here then?”
(Answers: the drinks were reasonable; there was less competition for the females that were there; when someone’s drink was accidentally spilled via a dancefloor collision, an apology and replaced drink was a far more likely result than a fistfight; and most importantly, the club & the music were GREAT).
In DC, there is a gay sports bar called Nelly’s. Perhaps folks here are familiar with it. Anyway, I’ve been there a couple times, usually already pretty drunk, and found it to be most like any other sports bar. As I understand it, late at night is when it becomes more “clubby”. Anyway, a bunch of us were seeing a show at the nearby 9:30 Club, but I insisted on cutting out during intermissions to catch a playoff basketball game. Nelly’s was the nearest/only spot that had it and I had no qualms about being in a gay bar so off I went. A friend-of-a-friend tagged along, one accepting of but far less comfortable with homosexuality. As we walked in, he grabbed me and said, “If anything happens, you’re my boyfriend.”
My response: “What could possibly happen that my being your boyfriend would help???”
We still laugh about that.
Kazzy,
Hmm… I know a guy who has often been told he’s gay. And when he insists he’s not, folks say that “you will be.”
This is also the guy that used to regularly bang lesbians (they had a good time!).
I don’t know if these are related… but it seems like an interesting datapoint.
The flagging thing still happens in the leather/bdsm/kink community (where the things Dr. Saunders finds “startling” are more common in general, I suspect), though it’s more of a “ooh look at me I’m in touch with our subcultural heritage” than anything approaching a standard mechanism for signalling interests.
That’s similar to my thought process too. If the premise is that I like men then run with that.
As for the lesbians butching up, my presumption was that this is signalling. Or maybe it’s just comfort — for the woman on the prowl, Doc Martens are probably a lot easier to wear than stiletto heels all day long.
I disagree. I’ve known lots and lots of lesbians. I do not think they dress a certain way as signalling. I think they dress how they dress because it’s how they feel comfortable and at ease with themselves, just like everyone else.
Russell,
We are constantly hiring new lesbian employees at my work (apparently they like the logistics business). I can literally spot them from 100 yards away on their first day. It’s like a uniform they all agreed on. My wife is at ease with herself and she doesn’t dress like that. It’s got to be something else.
Your wife is at ease dressing how she dresses. It suits her, makes her feel comfortable, is part of how she feels herself.
Lesbians dress how they do because it’s how they feel the same way about themselves. As they are different people than your wife, why would they be inclined to dress the same way?
I would look preposterous dressing in sports jerseys, and would feel equally ridiculous. Lots of guys love wearing them. Why is their preference an indication of how I should be expected to dress?
But Russell, I think you’re missing my point when I say they all dress exactly the same. Short, spiky haircuts with lots of gel, triple-pierced ears, sportsbras, men’s polo shirts, clunky shoes. Like I said, it’s basically a uniform they all agreed on. Furthermore, in my company men are required to tuck in their polo shirts, women are not. All of the lesbians tuck theirs in. The straight women don’t.
I can appreciate that they all feel free to be themselves but it seems highly unlikely they all chose to express themselves in exactly the same way.
I don’t think your preference against sports jersies signals sexual affinity, if that’s where you’re going with that. Rather, I think it signals a lack of interest in sports.
That said, I’m more than willing to entertain the notion that I’m wrong, that simple comfort as opposed to affinity signalling is what’s at why it seems many women who prefer women dress and wear their hair in a certain pattern. But that answer seems incomplete. Similarly, I think Mike’s asking why that population feels comfort with that pattern of personal presentation while heterosexual women tend to eschew it. (Tendencies, of course, not uniform behaviors, and percieved tendencies at that.)
Mike, here’s an important question: Where do you work?
Well, okay. I’ll back off a little.
Sure, there are fashions within every culture and subculture. Lesbians are no different, and the look you describe has a certain resilience, no doubt. As with all fashions, it comprises a degree of “signaling.”
But I’ve also known lots and lots of lesbians who don’t dress or style themselves the way you describe, but do prefer casual clothes, often button-down shirts and trousers instead of blouses and skirts. And that’s not so much signaling as it is dressing the way that suits them.
I’m not sure if you guys are as far apart on this as it seems.
Russell, when you say “I would look preposterous dressing in sports jerseys, and would feel equally ridiculous.” – part of that *is* signalling – that is, you wouldn’t want to appear to others in a way that feels untrue to yourself, or that others – your peers and potential mates – would ridicule or find unattractive.
And even that is not rock-solid, and could easily be influenced by the feedback you get from others. If all your own clothes were at the laundromat, so you borrowed a sports jersey one day, and good-looking man after good-looking man told you how great it looked on you, how tall and broad-shouldered it made you look, etc., etc…well, I wouldn’t be surprised if you changed your sartorial habits in response, no matter how iconoclastic and immune to peer pressure you think you are.
So I think that lesbians – like everyone – wear both what makes them comfortable, AND clothing that communicates what they wish, consciously or unconsciously, to communicate.
Moreover, re: Mike’s comments of ‘being able to spot from 100 yards’ = IIRC, amongst at least some lesbians, there is evidence of actual physical bodyshape differences to straight women – some lesbians tend to have higher BMI, higher waist-hip ratio (these could be lifestyle factors, genetics, or some combo), and higher testosterone/ longer ring fingers (indicative of prenatal androgen levels).
Men are wired to pick up on these things subconsciously. As a hunter who depends on long-practiced visual acuity, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find that Mike may be able to spot some cues in either dress or figure from farther away than most.
Glyph, I think you’re quite right.
Do lesbians dress the way they do as a way of signaling? Sure, in the same way that all of us do. A man’s putting on a suit and tie is signaling. His wife wearing a pencil skirt and kitten heels is signaling. A sports fan wearing a Pats t-shirt is signaling. Etc.
My objection is to say that when lesbians put on the clothing they like and style their hair in a certain way they’re signaling, but when a straight woman puts on a dress she’s simply getting dressed.
Mike,
Is it possible not all those women are lesbians? OR that there are other lesbians are your work who don’t dress in such a way but who you don’t identify as lesbians because they lack the “uniform”?
I’m also pretty sure that no one over 30 should wear a sports jersey unless they are getting paid to.
Russell – agreed, my point was that *everyone* signals to their desired in- and out- groups*.
*Pun not originally intended upon writing, but upon re-read, deemed apropos.
Glyph,
I’ve never thought of my hunting skills translating to improved gaydar but I like the theory. I swear I am better at it than my teenagers.
Russell,
I should clarify that I don’t think ALL lesbians dress that way. I just see a certain similarity at my workplace. And I also know we all signal to a degree. I wear some sort of outdoor apparel pretty much all the time. Beyond comfort, it’s definitely a way of advertising my interests.
Kazzy,
They are all lesbians. I have a couple I am friends with and I get the scoop around the watercooler. And two the last one they are all really cool. One of them shot a nice ten-point buck over the weekend. My kind of gal.
As a hunter who depends on long-practiced visual acuity, it wouldn’t surprise me at all to find that Mike may be able to spot some cues in either dress or figure from farther away than most.
I don’t think he’s talking about anything all that subtle. I have a pretty good idea of what he means, and it’s pretty blatant.
Mike,
My hunch then is that you workplace might be a bit of an anomaly, for one reason or another. I’ve known many lesbians and they come in all shapes, sizes, and stripes.
Some people like assertive people. Masculinity is often associated with assertiveness.
Then I still stick with Pierce Brosnan.
Burt,
I’ll totally cop to having indulged in some gay-curious fantasies or wondering. They’ve just always involved faceless, nameless men. I’ve never looked at a particular man and said, “Man, I’d like to kiss/bed him!” I might have said, “That guy is really attractive and I hate him for it.” But I have watched porn and said, “Hmmm… I wonder what it’s like to be on the receiving end of that.” Again, just nameless, faceless penii.
Well, of course. Going through such an exercise (whether with a fantasy man or a fantasy woman, as needed) is part of exploring one’s identity. Doesn’t mean all that much — a small fraction of a point on the Kinsey scale at most.
It emphatically is not perverse for a man to be attracted to women at the lower end of their fertile years. In a biological sense, it’s perverse not to be.
There may be legitimate reasons for society to discourage men from pursuing such relationships, even to punish them for doing so in extreme cases, but certainly the desire is normal.
Yea… which is why I wondered about the “party foul” comment. My objection to such relationships are usually on the grounds of the emotional and maturation gap that often exists between the two, something that is often exploited in an unhealthy way.
But if Zazzy could look like the 22-year-old Zazzy I first met forever, I wouldn’t exactly complain. Or feel creepy about continuing to be attracted to her.
Tip for all:
If your significant other perfectly maintains their youthful looks over the course of decades, there may be evil magic involved. Proceed with caution.
Check the house thoroughly for decaying portraits.
Yeah, when I got a good look at Elizabeth Bathory’s shower, I broke up with that crazy chick RIGHT quick.
I’d like more information on this evil magic. If God is responsible for the ephemerality of feminine beauty, I’m throwing my lot in with Satan.
Pro: All the women at Satan’s party retain their youthful looks, forever.
Con: They are all Snooki.
it ALSO is not PERVERSE for WOMEN to be attracted to boys at the lower end of their fertile years.
*snicker* why do you think so many boys play soccer?
I find I have the ability to say, “That’s one handsome dude,” but I can’t possibly think of anything beyond that. It’s like saying a Ferrari is pretty cool looking but I have no interest in driving one. It’s strictly an appreciation of visual excellence.
With that said, there were certain male actors whose work I have always enjoyed more than it probably deserved. Brad Pitt comes first to mind because A River Runs Through It and Legends of the Fall are two of my all-time favorite movies. I don’t know if that qualifies as a man crush but it’s probably about as close as I am ever going to get.
Heh. Easy one: Chelsea forward Fernando Torres. Although if I’m “switching sides” for Fernando, I’ll have to insist on the Liverpool, pre-injury version of Torres, who was a much better player than the current Chelsea version.
[A quick Google search later] Oh, my. Yes, yes I can see why.
Specifically, I admitted to having a crush on Emma Watson, erstwhile Hermione. In response, fellow Ordinary Sam
I believe that the correct term for “Ordinary” in this context is “Muggle.”
Totally straight, married, good Catholic man that I am, I wouldn’t consider a brief affair with anyone, man or woman, but I will say the following: Fassbender is beautiful, Christian Kane is adorably cute, Chris Hemsworth is worthy of his own adjective, Ewan Mcgregor has an uber-charming smile, Alan Rickman has a voice I could listen to 24/7, and Daniel Craig gives new meaning to suave.
If I were a betting man, I’d have placed a benjamin on your mentioning Mr. Hemsworth.
I have to second the Hemsworth vote. When he breaks out into a smile… yeah, he’s absofarkinlutely GORGEOUS.
There’s a few people that I’d be in nirvana just by listening to them reading the Oxford Unabridged Dictionary:
James Earl Jones
Alan Rickman
Patrick Stewart
Sean Connery
I’d love to get a piece of Daniel Craig – preferably on the hood of that Aston Martin DB5.
Sean Connery is the trope “men want to be him”. To quote (ahem) myself,
If Sean Connery walked into a white tie dinner in nothing but
boxers with valentine hearts on them, every other male would strip down to
his shorts and feel uncomfortable about wearing the wrong ones.
My answers will surprise exactly no one probably, as (almost) all are musicians/singers.
Young Bernard Sumner, up through about ’87.
Young Josh Homme (who had a bit of a ‘Young Elvis’ thing going for a while there).
And, most obviously and inarguably, Young Elvis. Good god, he was really pretty, up at least through the ’68 comeback special. I don’t care if you are straight or gay, male or female – if you wouldn’t give Young Elvis at least a shot, you have no eyes.
Of course, all later became bloated.
So did I, but they at least had their memories and photos of their younger, beautiful selves, along with huge piles of cash, to comfort them.
All I have is mildly bi-curious bitterness.
Oh yeah, one more who isn’t a musician, but looks like one – that Brit physicist, Brian Cox (!) that’s always on cable. Someone that looks like that AND has brains and an accent (plus, not bloated, or dead!) – well, I’d at least consider turning in my hetero card for that.
Even young Elvis comes off as way to cocky. Huge turn-off, no matter how objectively attractive he was.
But yeah, Brian Cox is a cutie.
RE: cocky – well, allow me to quote WW and say, if you done it, it ain’t braggin’. Rock stars are supposed to be cocky, and in the beginning was the Elvis.
I know which men I think are good-looking—in a purely esthetic sense, mind you. However, this seems to be only weakly correlated with the men whom women find good-looking.
I recently started watching Revenge—the writing’s gone to hell, but I’ll watch anything with footage of Emily VanCamp—and was shocked to find out that women seem to find Gabriel Mann attractive, when all I can think is “What the hell happened to his face?” I find this heartening—it’s good to know that I can get by without a pretty face as long as I stay in shape.
Brian Musso circa 1997
The guy married to Heather Headley?
I’m confident enough in my sexuality to be able to say when a guy is objectively attractive. George Clooney and Jake Gylleenhaal come to mind.
Not quite a full on “batting for the other side” but I’ve had fantasies about what it would be like to be the lover in a less callow version of Sunday Bloody Sunday. For those who don’t remember, this is a film from the early 1970s about a bisexual artist sleeping with a middle-aged Jewish doctor (male) and a divorced lady. Both the doctor and lady know about each other and know that the affairs will only end badly but get involved because it is better than the alternative of being alone. Hence my desire for a less callow version.
More specifically there have been heterosexual couples I have known and I’ve fantasied about what it would be like to be the lover to both of them at the same time. Said couples would probably kill me if they ever found out about these fantasies.
Mitt and Ann Romney???
Cute but not really.
No, I mean ordinary people that I have known in life.
Alan,
I work for Acme Inc. We make all sorts of products. You can find many of them here:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=acme+in+products&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&bpcl=38093640&biw=1280&bih=850&wrapid=tlif135282838806610&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=6oWiUNinG5Sm8ASNyoHYDw
Really?
What I was getting at is this:
The fact that your lesbian co-workers all dress the same can have very different explanations depending on whether those co-workers are lumberjacks or corporate lawyers or punk rock musicians.
I work in the logistics industry. Standard business casual dress.
Are these new hires recent college grads? If so, I’m guessing they’re just dressing the same way as the rest of their college social set. I suspect the distinctive look will fade as their peer group shifts from “the other girls from the gay student union” to “the folks from the office”.
Although there’s probably still a desire to not be ogled by men that will continue to inform their fashion sense.
I was wondering where you got those rocket-propelled skates for your go-bag. Now I know.
I’m as nonheterosexual as they get. But if weren’t, I’d pick Madonna, back in her prime.
(Is that answer kind of gay? Yeah. Probably.)
When I first saw just the first half of this comment in the “Gifts of Gab”, I was thinking, “That might be the gayest answer possible.”
Madonna? Really?
I’m a hetero guy, and she always seemed a bit too–I don’t know–hard-edged and bulletproof to me.
Romantic tastes are weird…
(Is that answer kind of gay? Yeah. Probably.)
Wrong.
(Is that answer
kind ofdeeply gay? Yeah. Probably.)Fixed it.
Personally, I never really got the whole Madonna thing. She falls into the same category as Angelina Jolie for me… I don’t think they are actually all that attractive, but they just exude sexiness. Something about how they carry and present themselves. They do it in different ways but both are far, far sexier than they are attractive.
I also was too young for most of Madonna’s career. I remember thinking she looked really pretty in “A League of their Own” but was sort of scared of the pointy boob thing, though I do remember a slight tingle in my pants. Was that kind of gay?
Here’s an experiment.
Is this woman attractive to you? If you said “yes,” and you’re male, then chances are you’re responding in a heterosexual fashion to a picture of an attractive woman.
Seems to me that a man who finds a woman attractive is not exhibiting homosexual tendencies, even if gay men are stereotypically fascinated with the woman in question. So if Madonna elicits a tingle in your pants, well, a good case can be made that she is indeed hot. I sure thought so when I was a teenager and except for a handful of alternative looks she’s tried out over the years that may have been fun for her but not so visually appealing to me, I think she’s kept her hotness mostly intact. Would that I could say the same about myself.
I don’t really find that woman attractive. What now?
And I was wondering about the tingle-in-pants/fear-of-pointy-boobs combo. “Those boobs are scary! Hey… What’s going on down there?”
I wasn’t looking for a tingle in my pants. If I were, I’d have to be at least slightly bisexual. But I’m not.
I was asking more about the qualities I like in men, then changing the gender — are they smart, assertive, at least somewhat conventionally attractive, and likely to be interesting to talk to? Do they seem like they could be frank and realistic enough about intimacy that they would be able to make it fun?
And apart from some personal female friends and/or academics who should clearly all remain completely nameless, Madonna sprang to mind. There you have it.
What I find interesting is that most folks here are choosing conventional celebs. Maybe I ought to put madeline albright down on my list…?
Celebrities make perfect fodder for this discussion.
¹. They are attractive in a conventional sense.
². They are well known to lots of people. Pictures are readily available.
³. They are safe: some people have mentioned stray thoughts about people they actually know. That’s not safe.
But if Madeline Albright seems like she’d do it for you, well, that’s your answer.
Non-celebrities: I used to have a thing for Condi Rice. And of course, Sarah Palin.
Burt, *nods* which is why this thought stayed in my head, until I read what Jason was talking about. I would literally not be caught dead trying to have an intelligent conversation with Emma Watson. Let alone Britney Spears.
Oh, and I’m not smart/witty enough to be invited to talk/party with the comedians…
I kind of have a thing for Sarah Palin too, but she’d have to promise not to say a word. A sentence with twelve elementary errors in grammar kills the whole “sexy librarian” scene.
“Is there a book about that you’d recommend?”
“All of them!”
Sheesh.
Halle Berry hubba hubba
Is it just me, or is there essentially zero overlap between the set of women whom men and women consider to be extremely attractive?
I’m not saying she’s ugly, mind you—though that awful haircut isn’t doing her any favors—but I meet prettier girls all the time. In fact, this seems to be the case with just about any woman whom women tend to cite as examples of women whom they think of as extremely attractive.
Are you saying that men don’t find Halle Barry attractive?
If so, that is batshit crazy. Are you kidding me?!?!
I mean my husband and I fight over who gets to have her on their list me or him! Maybe we will have to share….did I say that out loud? TMI?
I don’t know. As far as other men go, I’m asking, not saying. Personally, I just don’t see it. She’s good-looking, sure. Especially taking her age into account. But if I were ticking off the names of the most beautiful women I can think of, she wouldn’t even come to mind. She just seems to me to be lacking the requisite feminine softness needed to be really beautiful.
BB,
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. I’ll admit that she doesn’t often spring to mind when I think of beautiful women, but that is more an exposure thing. I haven’t really seen a ton of movies she’s in or otherwise consume media that showcases her. I don’t even really know what she’s up to most of the time. Is she one of the rare celebrities that avoids much of that nonsense? I really have no idea. But when I do see her, I am genuinely blow away… I think she’s that beautiful. Her skin looks photoshopped like all the time.
More broadly, I will say that women and men often identify different women as beautiful/sexy/hot. This actually isn’t all that surprising given that straight men and straight women are often going to be looking at women in very different ways (e.g., a woman (especially a white woman) is unlikely to laud a curvier rear, something many men, myself included, lust after).
I think she’s amazing, myself. And very feminine. But hey, who can complain about one fewer rival?
I’ve just got to join the chorus of dissent on this one. I know I’m not part of the target demographic, but I think Halle Berry is stupefyingly gorgeous. If someone told me they thought she was the most beautiful woman in the world, I’d be hard-pressed to disagree. (I think it’s this lady, though.)
Halle Berry has never done anything for me. If I was asked to name the world’s most beautiful black women, she wouldn’t even make my top 10.
And for the record, the top 5 are:
Kerry Washington
Zoe Saldana
Megan Goode
Meghan Markle
Tyra Banks (in her prime)
Tyra Banks (in her prime)
Mike:…no Beyonce?
Beyonce is a nice-looking gal but I always like Kelly Rowland more.
I should also have included Toni Braxton in there.
I see that; but sorry Russell, if we are on the subcontinent, the correct answer is Freida Pinto.
Beyonce, as her song indicates, is bootylicious in the way I like.
Sure, Germans came up with a useful word in “schadenfreude”, but Americans came up with ‘bootylicious’.
Advantage: America.
Glyph wins the thread.
Regarding Freida Pinto, an Indian friend of mine said this:
“There’s no way she’s Indian. She’s too hot. She must be Puerto Rican.”
It was uncomfortably hilarious.
I am not an expert in Indian naming conventions, but I have to say “Freida Pinto” doesn’t sound like any Indian name I have ever encountered at my work. Maybe it’s a stage name.
Sorry Brandon, but I’ll chime in saying Halle Berry’s drop dead gorgeous.
I agree with you, Prof. Hanley, but it’s too easy for me to say, “if I were a homosexual man, thinking about what kind of woman I might prefer were I heterosexual, an example of the kind of woman I think I would like in that situation would be Halle Berry.” Because in reality, I am a heterosexual man and I find Ms. Berry quite attractive. It seems sort of circular, doesn’t it?
Burt, you’re a lawyer, aren’t you? 😉
I wouldn’t say that. Angelina Jolie makes me want to barf and plenty of men find her attractive.
I would say I would hook up with Ellen DeGeneres, but that, in theory, could actually happen if I was gay. I think that changes things.
Angelina Jolie was was sexier back before she got famous.
Kinda like Julia Roberts. Super hot in “Mystic Pizza”, got too skinny immediately thereafter. Great laugh, though.
I think part of what makes Angelina Jolie appealing is not so much her physical attractiveness but that the persona she projects — and I’m not talking about when she’s playing a role but rather when she’s herself — is that she would be a tiger in the sack. Even if you think there are more attractive celebrities out there than her, my impression is that of all the people you see photographed on the cover of tabloid magazines and could fantasize about as a bed partner, she’d be the most fun during sexytime.
Some people really go for that big lipped look. It’s sultry or something. Doesn’t work for me, but I guess I can see why someone would like it.
hmm… tiger in the sack sounds dangerous. Don’t they tend to go for the eyes?
“Burn that seat” (hint: I’m not quoting from the simpsons).
Burt,
That’s sort of what I was getting at. She just carries herself a certain way. She has “it” in a way that some women who are more physically attractive don’t. Confidence is part of it but there is definitely more to it.
James,
When I first saw your comment in Gifts of Gab, I feared that you had lost it and were pasting that in the thread on attractive black women. Be still my beating heart!
Hey, maybe I like that.
Funny you should mention Angelina Jolie.
You crazy.
Having just read that post, Will, I must politely dissent from your opinion re: Jake Gyllenhaal. He is crrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy hot.
Not recently. He was hot pre-brokeback mountain. But I feel like ever since he played gay he’s trying to compensate by being extra manly, and it’s not a look that works for him. For starters, he could use a shave.
I have no qualms with his current look, but it all comes down to preference, doesn’t it?
Take a good-looking guy. Keep him away from a razor for a few days.
Instantly he’s hotter.
Just my opinion, but there you have it.
Based on the improper and occasionally imprudent conversations I have had with my spouse, and friends of multiple genders who are attracted to women, over the years, I would say there is substantial overlap.
SUBSTANTIAL.
My number on the Kinsey scale precludes me from being able to play this game. Not fair!
That explains some things…
My number on the Kinsey scale also precludes me from being able to play this game, but (in my case at least) I would say the compensations FAR outweigh the unfairness.
Man, this was a hard question. I think I’m pretty comfortable with my sexuality, but I just can’t quite figure out even what kind of guy I could potentially be attracted to. I’m inclined to say it would have to be a really really effeminate one, a guy as much like a girl as possible.
But then I did remember this. In the movie Soldier of Orange, there’s a scene where Rutger Hauer is combing another man’s hair. Rightly or wrongly, I remember it striking me as strongly, albeit subtly, sexually charged, a real hit of eroticism that I wouldn’t have expected to notice. So maybe Rutger Hauer? If somehow such a dude could be made really effeminate?
Maybe you just want your hair combed…
I have been growing it out. It’s longer than it’s been since 1994. Must be your influence, you hippy freak.
Gay Pat would probably still have the same sort of obsessions that Straight Pat does when it comes to the eye candy. Dancers and funny girls for Straight Pat, so probably Dancers and funny guys for Gay Pat. Straight Pat is into blondes, but also thinks dark men look better than light ones, so Gay Pat is probably a fan of black hair over blondies.
Gene Kelley. Not Fred, too skinny. A young Antonio Banderas.
Oh! Katharine Hepburn for me.
Gay Pat might like Maksim Chmerkovskiy, one of the pros from Dancing With the Stars.
Straight Pat doesn’t watch Dancing With the Stars, but it’s a sure bet that Gay Pat in parallel EarthWorld 345.1294 would.
or how about Hugh Jackman?
If I got the wife’s okay, I’d sleep with Hugh Jackman right now just so that I could say I boinked Wolverine.
(Not really. But 10 years ago I was a big enough X-men fanboy that I’d have considered it)
Wife says I can have Hugh Jackman if she gets a shot. She’d also be okay with Jon Hamm, who she says is my type.
My answer of Colin Farrell was already taken and so I went looking for others who might fit and they’re all father figures and that creeped me out so I stopped thinking about it.
There is another Farrell left on deck. Go for it!
Perry Farrell strikes me as high maintenance.
If I were going to jump the proverbial fence, it sure as heck wouldn’t be to explore high maintenance guys.
Mike Farrell? Or are you more an Alan Alda guy?
Alan Alda strikes me as someone who would want to talk about the relationship.
I understand that I would have liked him on The West Wing, though.
Mysterio. Unfortunately, he seems to be taken.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4772/1767/1600/13.jpg
I’ve been watching those Curiosity specials on Discovery Channel recently. There was one about the human capacity for evil hosted by Eli Roth, and…I must confess, I did have a “I’m not gay, but…” moment towards him.
BTW: Emma Watson actually does very little for me.
Not to say she’s ugly or anything. I just prefer my women curvier in general.
I’ m certainly straight (anything done in New Orleans doesn’t count, right?), but I have certainly had slight crushes on a few men, both celebrity as well as a very few I’ve known IRL. Generally they involved men that I found characteristics I wished I had in myself (better dresser/more athletic/more sophisticated).
That said, if Eric Ripert ever shows up at my door – look out.
I’ m certainly straight
A fact that bummed me out deeply in high school
I can’t get my mind around the fact that you referenced Mickey Mantle and I, a lifelong baseball fan who remembers his career, can’t figure out why you did.
Barbara,
Mickey Mantle was a switch-hitter (probably the greatest of all time). Hence, Russell’s reference.
Hrmm… If I were to switch-hit, it’d probably be for one of the following:
Scarlett Johansson (although, I think I’d be too old for her)
or
Michelle Pfeiffer from her Batman days.
Michelle Pfeiffer from her Batman days
Another one I would add to my list.
as a straight dude i just loves me some Robert Downey Jr. small q. does a lesbian count as crossing teams as well(because we both likes the women?) If it does then Rachael Maddow for sure. to me she got straight up sexy and the best after sex conversation in the universe.
No, I don’t think you get to count Rachel Maddow. She’s a woman, and you’re attracted to women. Her preferences are irrelevant to yours, in this case.
Mmm… Robert Downey Jr.
In the Iron Man outfit.
With Chris Hemsworth dressed as Thor.
I’d be one happy, happy Darwy.