My call: Biden threw away a clear win with his bad behavior. In a way, he was more presidential in his manner and poetic approach, but also less presidential when he blew his cool about halfway through. Fortunately for him, he caught himself and finished strongly.
For Ryan, he personally broke even, didn’t hurt himself or the ticket. I think had he been more combative on Biden, it would have hurt him—his best moments were in keeping his adult cool when Biden interrupted and misbehaved.
In the attack dog column, Ryan landed a number of effective shots on President Obama, whereas Biden’s slams on Romney were demagogic, trying to exploit “47 percent” and other rhetoric, not substance.
As with the Clint Eastwood thing, the GOP strategy is to get America to give itself permission to toss Obama and not be afraid of Romney-Ryan. Ryan furthered that plan, scoring some blows on Obama and doing nothing to hurt the GOP ticket.
For Biden, Job One was stemming the bleeding after Obama’s own disastrous performance. This he comfortably achieved, so where Ryan broken even, Biden was a plus for his ticket and campaign.
To judge who “won” the debate is academic, since it’s not really a debate, it’s just one more facet of the larger campaign. Biden helped his side more, so he gets the nod if we’re keeping score. But if “undecideds” tend to break for the challenger, Ryan may have made it easier to dump Obama and not be afraid of the alternative, so it can’t be said he lost either.
[None of this gets into the actual substance. Not sure it matters. Also, CNN had one of those moment-to-moment tickers and females were not digging Joe’s act until he settled down at the end.]
On substance Biden destroyed Ryan. Biden had an answer or counterpoint to each of Ryan’s attacks. On style Biden came across as willing to talk over Ryan which is not polite. After last week’s muted performance by Obama, Biden’s overaggressiveness was just what Obama Biden needed. Ryan defended Romney’s positions well, but didn’t have answers to each Biden point. T
I wondered the whole time whether Ryan was taking TVD’s advice and giving Biden a wide berth so as not to look too aggressive against a likable elder statesman. I still think his marching orders were to play it conservative, don’t go for the big win by risking gained ground, do no harm. But i think he could have opened the throttle in light of Biden’s palpable hostility and uncharacteristic unlikeability.
I am firm; you are aggressive; he’s a jerk.
I didn’t watch the whole thing, but just to confirm that I know nothing about political debating, I thought Ryan did very well and presented a strong case – much stronger than Romney did – for why the GOP deserves a vote. Especially on domestic issues. On the other hand, I thought Biden was often too loose and unfocused, and didn’t present a coherent fresh picture of why the Dems deserve a vote.
Also, I agree with you that Biden was overly aggressive, but unlike you I thought that criticism applied to Romney in Debate 1. And I agree with you that Ryan’s more reserved approach paid dividends, but unlike you I thought that same praise applied to Obama in the earlier debate.
Still, we must both know equally little about debating because i completely agree. I was put off by Romney elbowing his way past the moderator and seeming too anxious to make his points. He also grinned too much. Biden did the same tonight. I thought those things counted against them, but we’ll see how the country reacts.
“Knock-knock”
“Who’s th–”
“Joe Biden!”
[Already famous Tweet]
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/10/11/Biden-Interrupted-Ryan-82-Times
Thanks for saying that Tim. It’s reassuring to know that other people were seeing what I was seeing.
Like I said I didn’t see the whole debate, and apparently Ryan really punted on lots of the foreign policy sections of the debate. I didn’t see those. But as for the domestic stuff, I thought he made a better case for the GOP version of “America’s future” than Romney did, in part, I think, because he embraced the vision as a good thing. He didn’t run away from it. If I had to reduce my criticism of Romney’s performance to a single complain, it’s that he lied/distorted/obfuscated about the policies and details of his economic plans regarding taxes, the deficit, job growth, Medicare and Medicaid. He didn’t own them.
Ryan, I thought, did a better job of that (again, on just the domestic stuff, which about all I saw). Biden hit him hard on the holes in those plans, but I thought Ryan did a good job of deflecting that criticism without appearing like he was running away from that criticism. He accepted it, embraced it.
Biden, on the other hand, did a good job of tearing down the Romney-Ryan plan, but didn’t give voters any fresh reasons to vote Dem. His strategy in the debate seemed more focused on attacking the GOP ideas. Tactically, that was probably the right move to make at this point, given the surging Mittmentum, but I felt he missed an opportunity to throw some new Democrat ideas into the mix. But … maybe the Dems don’t have any new ideas (and maybe they don’t need any). IF that’s the case, then he missed an opportunity to dress up the old ideas and make them sound fresh.
I disagree with Tim here. I thought Romney’s persona for his debate was perfect. He wasn’t rude or overbearing, he wasn’t trying to humiliate the President or deny him his fair shot to talk. He was forceful in making sure that he would get the chance to make his points.
And to large extent it’s the same libs who complaining about Romney’s assertiveness in the Presidential debate cheering on Uncle Joe’s over top jerkness from yesterday. What hypocritical droolers.
Again, I don’t profess to be good at this, but what was running through my mind during the Obama/Romney debate was: He’s got to not only make his points, but make them passionately, not breathlessly, calmly and respectfully. While I found his responses perfect if I were reading the transcript, he came off as a bit precocious and over-excited. He did exactly with the President what TVD feared Ryan would do with Biden: beat him to a pulp. Yet I was surprised to find myself liking Obama more than usual during that speech. Perhaps I felt sorry for him. And I thought Romney was more excited about making his arguments than the arguments themselves. He didn’t connect like he did at the convention when he looked at the camera and said platitudes can wait, I want to help you and your family. That was his best moment in the campaign, in my opinion.
Note that I don’t think Romney did anything wrong in the debate. I thought his pitch wasn’t quite perfect, not that he was rude. I thought Biden was rude. A CNN poll (I think) this morning showed Ryan gained more likeability points than Biden. So I was right about Biden. Romney, on the other hand, picked up more points in likeability (and every other category) than Obama from their debate, so I was wrong about Romney.
Just shows that one size don’t fit all. Gotta do what fits you. The question is whether Obama can go back to the soaring rhetoric bag again.
I actually thought Romney’s eagerness was great, the best part of the debate even. The key narrative of the election for the MSM and the lib punditocracy is that our problems are intractable: might as well vote for President Obama and slog through. But it doesn’t have to be that way. There are actual answers for economy, and Governor Romney has the answers, and is eager to tell us what they are. And if we elect Governor Romney and use the answers, we’ll still have the same problems as we did before, but the way out of them will seem much different and much better.
Some people like boxing, other people like judo.
I’ll take boxing and Biden over judo and Obama.
Your first two paragraphs and the last two jibe with how I saw it, Tom.
Close enough for rock’n’roll, Pat. 😉
This is sorta like the old joke from the USSR. So Nixon and Khruschev were running a race around the Kremlin. Khruschev comes in second. Nixon comes in next-to-last.
There were no winners last night. Neither Biden nor Ryan exhibited anything more sophisticated than turning the organ crank. Well, this monkey didn’t dance. Biden came across as a condescending, grinning, interrupting buffoon. Terribly off-putting. Ryan’s attempts at sincerity were so many exercises in futility: he was clearly repeating tropes he didn’t believe. I’ve seen both on the stump before: Biden has done better and could have done better last night. Ryan’s bulb only lights up when he’s on one of his Randroid Rants.
I’d give both Ryan and Biden a solid C- grade. Just barely passing. I had hoped for a fine clown show and didn’t get one. Ryan is such a greasy little putz, a fake, a hewer of wood and drawer of water. But Biden was a jerk, plain and simple.
{{Ryan is Bloom: The water carrier returning to the range.}}
Heh. From the source
Actually, Biden is Proverbs 29:9.
Who’s kidding whom here? Paul Ryan looked like a two-bit political commissar fresh out of zampolit school.
I wonder when TVD will inform us that the Browns are going to the Superbowl this year. Biden smashed Ryan out of the park and made him look like the ignorant, arrogant, lazy, little fraud that he has always been. I realize that there must be wails of “decorum” from the pearl-clutchers of the world, but this one wasn’t remotely close.
Whenever I get a sense of despair of American politics, it always helps to remember who the other team is. We’re not gonna lose to to the libiots.
Biden’s overt aggressiveness would have really only hurt him on balance if his opponent wasn’t a young brash white guy.
+1. Biden’s main enemy was his age. He needed to come across as vivacious, lively. And he did.
I thought Al Gore hammered W pretty solid in all three debates, so I might not be the best person to evaluate this.
But in contrast to those I didn’t see Biden winning this one on points. But he was clearly the more aggressive candidate. Like Tim, I fear Ryan took the TVD pre-debate advice and held back a little more than he should have. The one thing Ryan did accomplish is that he never seemed rattled or lost composure.
On balance, Biden won. It’s not so much that he energized the lib base as much as he reassured them. If Biden had definitively lost or appeared disiniterested, I think the race might be over in a few days. As it is, the libs can at least have some hope that the ticket cares as much about the race as they do. Even if Biden gives up a point or two in the polls for being such a jerk, it will be worth it.
Interesting discussion point, Koz. ” Even if Biden gives up a point or two in the polls for being such a jerk, it will be worth it.” Not sure, but mebbe.
So I was thinking that Biden may have stopped the bleeding and that was it. To this “lib,” which is so *ugly* both linguistically and aesthetically (please stop that you limbaugh fans, it’s just unpleasant), I thought that was the most he could hope for and indeed what he got.
Btw, “lib” is just an abbreviation for the Left in general. If it’s ugly that’s not my fault. And for that matter I haven’t watched Limbaugh in decades.
We defeat the epithet by embracing it.