I have a question for the community about the inclusion of non-good thieves (whoops, I mean “rogues”) in the party…
How much skimming off of the top is an acceptable level?
I am of the opinion that the answer is a non-zero amount but, of course, there are also limits. If you find magical items, say, you can’t lift them. However: skimming the extra silvers/coppers from a purse before splitting the gold with the party… maybe some magic bullets for a sling, maybe the occasional potion is fine. Or, at the very least, the price of doing business.
I’ve heard alternative theories, however, that such can still get a thief (rogue) killed. Even in a party with Lawful Good (!) people in it! This strikes me as exceptionally unsporting.
I wanted to throw that question out there for all y’all, though. What say you?
As someone with a vested interest in the party in question, I believe the acceptable choice is “If you steal from your own party members, they will notice! and be bitter! you may need to depend on these people to save your life! cost-benefit!!!!”
If I did not have a vested interested, I would probably say that it depends on what you think you can get away with, and as a thief, er, rogue, I would expect that your character would assume that what people didn’t know wouldn’t hurt them. OTOH, if you were a low level character, I would perhaps be wary of the DM messing with you for that… surely you are not SO skilled as to get away with consistent theft and never risk exposure, sort of a thing.
I’d say that it again goes back to “role playing” versus “roll playing”. If my character is supposed to be a thieving scumbag, then sure, take what you can get. A competent DM will, of course, make you do a skill check to avoid being seen–and will also make sure the other players know the difference between “player knowledge” and “character knowledge”.
Is the rogue a kleptomaniac driven to relieve those of their fortunes? Go ahead and steal regardless of the consequences. Be smart about it and use those sticky fingers while others are asleep or otherwise occupied with their lives.
Is the rogue a lazy sort who fell into the profession because of big payoffs for very little work? Don’t steal from one’s teammates. Run ahead, scout out things, take s taste of the treasure before everyone else is aware of its existence then get it divvied up. Stealing from one’s teammates requires lots of effort and work, physically and socially, and goes against the aforementioned roguish work ethic.
If the rogue is stealing because of their evil nature then this should not be an issue. Steal and revel as a reprobate. One can always have fun by picking on a halfling in a bar, reverse-pickpocketing some gold pieces into their pocket and tell the angry fighter the little guy is the one who ripped him off. After all, everyone knows that halflings are thieves by nature. It’s in their blood. Once the poor sap has been dispatched ask for 10% for helping the fighter.
As long as the people you’re playing with continue to laugh with you when you role-play “that darned light-fingered rogue,” you’re fine. When the people you play with start getting annoyed because they never get any of the good stuff, you’ve gone too far. It strikes me that the group you play with understands that you’re role-playing a filthy hobbit. Everyone knows how you people are.
I played in a campaign where the party thief (shut it–we’re talking 1st edition here) was the DM’s older brother. The thief got everything he wanted and we were annoyed.
That’s what you get for sleeping with the DM
Was re: bunk beds
(I have no idea what YOU were thinking what I was implying)
The magic items need to be treated differently than the gold pieces. If the DM is doing her job right, the magic items are not going to be generated by rolling dice on a table, they’re going to be pre-selected to be useful for one or more of the characters — and they’re going to be relatively unusual. So the thief needs to allow optimal distribution of the really rare goodies — for the reasons cited by Maribou.
Similarly, there needs to be enough gold left over for the other characters to get the stuff they need to stay competitive. If the thief seems to have a heavy share, well, there may be a reason for that, but if it gets in the way of the fighter who is looking to step up to that new suit of plate mail, well, the thief needs to be willing to turn his talents to the aid of his friend.
My thieves always stole exclusively from NPCs.
> If the DM is doing her job right, the magic items are
> not going to be generated by rolling dice on a table,
> they’re going to be pre-selected to be useful for one
> or more of the characters
I’m of two minds when it comes to this. Traditionally, I use magic items as planted Deus Ex Machina. The party will need this Wand of Opening, and it will have precisely as many charges as there are locks that are very difficult to get undone in trying circumstances later on. If the party uses it effectively, good on ’em. If they waste it because they want to unlock the door that could just be bashed down with some effort, well, that’s on them.
However, the best campaign I ever ran was one where I was seat-of-the-pantsing treasure rolls and the party got an intelligent sword out of it. Craziest set of rolls I ever got. I decided to roll with it, metaphorically.
There’s nothing necessarily wrong with randomizing it, as long as you keep the dynamic going to keep the playability at the right level. It just shifts the “keep the story balanced” from up front work to doing it on the fly.
Since the players often will do crazy stuff necessitating you doing things on the fly anyway (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612), it’s a good way to force yourself to revisit chucking parts of your narrative in the middle.
Splitting the distance between top-down and bottom-up adventure design, as it were.
If you actually need the envelopes, then you’re stealing too much. The right amount is the amount your fellow players let you get away with.
I’m of the opinion that the thief who steals from his own party is a boring cliché. That works in environments that play off cliché (say, for example, with Haley from Order of the Stick), but the class got renamed in 3rd edition for a very good reason.
Choose a compelling story or character reason to steal from your party. The thief that steals because he is greedy is a boring character. The thief that steals because his childhood as an orphan in a near-apocalyptic war zone has left him paranoid and incapable of trust might be interesting. The thief who keeps stealing potions from the holier-than-thou paladin only to invariably administer them to the same paladin when things go south is downright entertaining.
If you’ve got the balance right, the rest of the table will be too entertained to care that you’re stealing their stuff. If they’re bothered, that’s a clue that you need to either steal less or roleplay more.
The edition matters a lot here. In 3rd and 4th editions there are a number of characters that can have very high perception, aside from the rogue. In one campaign I played an elf ranger with freakishly high perception, I could walk into a room and go “Trap, Trap, Secret Door, guy hiding behind a pillar, Trap”. A rogue that tried to steal from me (or the rest of the party) would have a serious problem.
To clarify: I’m not talking about lifting from other characters. I’m talking about being the one told to loot the bodies and bring the pile of stuff back to the group to divvy up.
You’re crazy worrying about this. Take your taste and the divvied share.
If the characters find out, tell them it was hazard pay for sending you off alone to scrounge through corpse pockets. They might’ve been wearing Rings of the Zombie which would’ve raised them and made your mission even more dangerous.
Then accuse the Lawful Goods of being lazy for sending a rogue to do their work instead of having a Pellorian work ethic.
I worry primarily because I don’t want to generate bad blood within the RL group.
I still need to wet my beak, though.
Oh please, are you playing with friends or are you playing with a group of randomly selected neckbeards that you didn’t know yesterday?
I’m playing with friends but I also want to make sure that my friends think that they’re playing with friends.
Says the guy who plays hardball in Munchkin
That’s completely different. Munchkin is blacktop.
If you didn’t know to come on strong, you’re at the wrong house.
I have been in many groups where this sort of things has caused problems. People quickly step out of character and get upset when they feel they are getting things stolen from them. Now there are two levels of basic thievery and two main things to steal. The two levels are direct and indirect thievery. The two main things are gold and magic.
Indirect thievery is where the rogue grabs some coins and/or potions before the stuff is split between the party. I have found through the years that most people are fine with this sort of thing as long as we are not talking about a very large percentage of the loot. Direct thievery is where the rouge steals something directly off a character. I have seen this go down hill fast for a group and some serious bitterness from players. Saying, “I am just playnig my character” normally does not cut it and soon the game is over.
Gold and magic is obvious and normally people are fine with some gold and may be okay with the omision of an item that really helps the thief, but magic items have to be very carefully thought about before the rogue just takes them. Minor magic like potions or other expendables are normally ok, but when you take the Holy Avenger you cannot even weild instead of letting the Paladin have it…. things start to get bad in most groups.
Hell, I remember a group that the only way we could split items was by a roll. Each player would roll a d20 and the highest would get first pick and so on. Anything else led to bitterness in the group.
“[W]hen you take the Holy Avenger you cannot even weild instead of letting the Paladin have it…”
…then you’re just stupid, because why would you do that? (Plus which, where would you hide the thing? “What’s that large sword-shaped object in your pants?” “Oh, uh, Lawful Good kind of turns me on, y’know?”)
And if your group can’t actually play together without going all total-random distribution of the loot then…maybe the problem isn’t the thief, sort of thing.
I use a couple different methods here.
One, backstory (remember the thread on backstory?) If the thief has a long term relative/partner, use them to keep the thief in check. Bonus points for roleplaying it properly. One character is the daughter of a gemstone cutter, and it’s not the thief, who actually has a low “recognize value” skill, so they have to enlist the daughter. Stuff like that.
Two, rat them out early. “Danargh, you’re the first in the room and you happen to notice Zwerg pocketing something as he turns around to greet you.” The players will set expectations among themselves, right quick.
Three, punish the thief behind the scenes if it gets out of balance. The group finds stuff the thief can’t use, or the thief finds stuff he can’t use, or the thief gets cracked on the noggin and loses his hat, underneath which is the expensive necklace he pocketed earlier.