Last week, I made a casual joke to commenter Kazzy about the perks of being gay:
The prize package is really nice, and comes with a pass to say “you look great in those pants!” to female coworkers without getting slapped with a lawsuit.
This is, of course, true. I never think twice about saying something complimentary to the women who work in my office. I always notice new hairstyles, frequently say things like “That’s a cute skirt” or ask where they got their earrings. Not once have I ever had the slightest concern that anything I’ve said might be construed in a way other than I intended, which is simply a hope to make the recipient’s day just a little bit nicer.
Now, I’m sure there’s got to be a limit to how far I’m able to go with this. I doubt I could get away with saying “Your cans look great in that sweater!” Given that I would have to be so far around the bend as to have presumably been taken for psychiatric evaluation well before it came to that point, under normal circumstances the question is pretty much moot.
I have always thought that this wee little silver lining accrues to my being obviously no sexual threat to women whatsoever. *casually buffs his shiny “Perfect Six!” medallion from the Kinsey Institute* And I’ll take whatever silver lining I can get, what with various bits of the country seemingly hell-bent of making themselves as inhospitable to folks like me as possible. In fact, having completely sexual-tension-free friendships with women is pretty freakin’ fantastic. As cosmic compensation for Jesse Helms, it’s not half bad.
My impression of things is that straight guys don’t have it so good. But my impression of things is not an entirely reliable barometer of reality. I have, at times, gotten the wrong impression. So here’s my question for this week — do you straight guys out there feel wary about saying nice things to the women you work with, for fear it will be taken as some kind of come-on? Is this special privilege all in my head? Did I watch too many episodes of “Designing Women” back during the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings? And how about my fellow Confirmed Bachelors? Do you enjoy a similar ease with the women you work with, or do you think I should expect a summons? Finally, for you female readers, how do you feel about compliments from male co-workers? Do you feel borderline harassed, or do you take it at face value?
In my experience, at least a significant percentage of straight men feel perfectly comfortable commenting on appearance. They will not ask where I got my earrings. But many seem to have no problem saying they like them, or clothes, or hair, or shoes, or whatever. Not just “I like X article of clothing,” but “You look really good in X.” I guess that’s sort of surprising, given that discussion of how to make women feel more welcome is omnipresent.
Generally doesn’t bother me in the least. There are exceptions – it can be said with a leering rather than easy-going tone. Which is kind of ick. This dropped dramatically when my husband joined the department. One male grad student said to my face that I was only ranked higher than he was because our mutual advisor wanted to sleep with me. So…um, obviously I wasn’t too fond of that.
About a year ago, pre-baby 3, I presented at a conference with some seriously prestigious people in my field. A group of three crazy prestigious guys were going out to lunch, and one turned and invited me along. He had been flirting with me in an ick way, and I am positive I would not have been invited along were his intentions strictly honorable. One of the other guys was a very good connection to make. So I went, but felt kind of gross about it. Even though the good connection guy was lovely (and seemed disgusted by sleazy guy), I’ve still not taken him up on his offer to send him my work for his comments, just because it feels sort of dishonorable.
I don’t like hearing comments made like that about women in general, i.e., suspicions that they are where they are because of attractiveness. One time a pretty famous scholar visited our department. While there, he asked me to go out for drinks (actually, although I declined, this was done in a non-icky, cheerful way) and apparently commented to some male profs that all the females in our department were hot. At some point after the visit, and after she sent him her work, he offered a temporary visiting scholar position (he is at one of the top 3 programs in the country) to a particularly attractive grad student. Apparently, the faculty actually had a meeting and warned her not to go, that she wasn’t being invited for her talent. Their evidence for this was his comment and her looks. I thought that was absolutely outrageous and inappropriate and insulting to her. (she went.)
One last thing. I think I’ve experienced much more actual sexism in virtue of being a mother (measured in difficulties with my career) than in virtue of getting hit on. The problems women face as sexual harassees is far more discussed than the prejudices against mothers.
Merely the level of detail in the memories of these incidents in the preceding comment, I think, gives a picture as to the reality that underpins Russell’s question about men’s perceptions of the environment they face on this question, whether or not it is the one that the commenter intended overall to give, and regardless of how this reality is perceived by men on average (variance on that question, and thus average awareness rather than a more uniform shared level being the key point there). And that’s not for a second to question whether that which was experienced as Ick was in fact Ick. But the lesson there is that if presumably civilized distinguished academics can’t take the kinds of risks that Russell describes without clearly failing to navigate the requirements of non-creepiness, then it’s hard to see why any given corporate schlub should rate the likelihood that his skill in that area as significantly higher. (Though the argument that the social-adjustedness of academic philosophers is likely to be significantly over-credited in the popular imagination as compared to that of an average corporate schlub does have considerable presumptive merit in my book. Still, I don’t think any one individual guy’s odds are particularly good.)
That said, given the amount of sexual harassment that nevertheless takes place, it seems to me that the amount of this reality relating to how comments like this are likely to be received, and the potential consequences of having them received poorly, that is actually perceived by men in the workplace on average is pretty open to question. But there’s no doubt that men who are alert to workplace norms that have the potential to have consequences for them regarding how they should interact with women (a category of men that is something less than 100% of men in mixed workplaces) feel a degree of necessary hesitation about what they should or should not say about a woman’s appearance. Just to hazard one guess about a possibly common view on how this cashes out in practice, I’d say that generally you feel pretty comfortable giving compliments about accessories, jewelry, or footwear, but that if you’re prudent, you’re probably going to hesitate and likely choose not to mention any actual garment of clothing that is worn between the ankles and the neck. The reason for this, though, has likely as much to do with simply how you want to be thought of as a coworker by the person you might direct the compliment to, as it likely does any concern about actual official consequences stemming from it in isolation.
That’s different, though, when it comes to the consequences of an individual comment if it happens to be consistent with a general propensity to make such comments. If that’s the case, then on the one hand, that person has already chosen to pursue a different risk-reward formula than the one I think is the rule of thumb for those of a cautious bent; on the other hand, how many people who are inclined not to follow that rule of thumb at any one time are not also people for whom such comments are more or less a way of life in the workplace? So the question is pretty much a matter of immediate concern for every male worker: what kind of guy are you going to be in this place, and what are the potential consequences of not just making a single comment, but of being a “certain” kind of guy rather than another kind?
In short, I think the answer to Russell’s question to straight men is yes: there is wariness. That is, at least among the wary there is. (Sic.)
To be clear: about 98% of comments I perceive as non-ick. Ick stands out for obvious reasons.
That said, if I were a male, I would be wary. I’m surprised more aren’t.
And I would say that given my limited experience in the corporate schlub world, and greater experience in the academic world, there is a lower bar for social skills expectations in academia. For appropriate behavior, my money is on the schlub (not so long ago, someone in our department had to be reminded to wear shirt and shoes in public).
To further tease out ick v. non-ick, guy inviting me to lunch was not saying I had a nice sweater on. He was saying how now that he’s divorced, he wants the opportunity to sleep with younger women (he is 25 or so years older than me), followed by asking if I was staying alone in my hotel. Etc.
That’s bordering on insane, and I don’t mean that figuratively.
…And yet, somehow, somehow, he apparently thought that, while surely it pushed the boundaries, somehow he still was deftly negotiating the “real” boundary (or maybe in that case he was just consciously striding over it, but frequently men do say similarly outrageous things while thinking they are deftly negotiating boundaries). And that’s just the bet everyone is making whenever he arrives at that point where perfect confidence in propriety evaporates, and he decides to edge over the line: “I think I know where I am in relation to The Line, *and* to ‘the REAL line’; I think I have the dexterity to maneuver successfully in that space (i.e. between End of Certain Safety and the real line, with The Line existing somewhere in between); AND I think it’s worth trying to do so.’ I agree, it would seem the only sane mindset in that place is wariness, but as we see, that’s simply not the universal response.
I think I would have handled that by telling him that I knew someone I could set him up with.
Then once he takes the bait, every other detail I mention about fictitious person is a turn-off.
When it gets to the point that he begins to act disinterested, feed back facts of Mr Ick as applied to fictitious person; ie “Oh, but she’s recently divorced…” “She does have a thing for older men…” etc.
But that’s just me.
How did you handle that one?
And I’m sorry that happened to you. It does seem fairly creepy.
I think factors that figured into his setting the line so waaaaay over the line were: 1) He is very prestigious in the field, 2) Success in the field for people at my level depends strongly on the ability to curry favor with people at his level (i.e., he was in his mind doing me a favor), 3) We don’t work at the same institution, and 4) A sense of bravado, that he knew it was inappropriate but he was so damn charming he could get away with it.
That said, I just answered his questions as if they were genuine questions with no ulterior motive, murmured polite interest at his desire to sleep around, took him up on his offer for lunch with the other guys, felt kind of immoral for doing so (one was a particularly famous moral philosopher!), and excused myself after lunch.
[D]o you straight guys out there feel wary about saying nice things to the women you work with, for fear it will be taken as some kind of come-on?
No. First, I would never sleep with a co-worker. Secondly, if I’m truly interested in someone, I don’t seem to have much trouble making that plain. And third, I don’t have much of an issue giving positive feedback, for whatever reason (5 to 1).
Is this special privilege all in my head?
Maybe. I can tell you that women sure seem to like to hug me a lot. Everywhere I go, women are always wanting to hug me. Single, married, old, young. I go along with it, but frankly it’s uncomfortable at times; like some particularly attractive woman hugging me in front of her husband.
Did I watch too many episodes of “Designing Women” back during the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings?
If this was intentional viewing, and you weren’t just waiting for some other show to come on, the answer is likely “Yes.”
If this was intentional viewing, and you weren’t just waiting for some other show to come on, the answer is likely “Yes.”
I plead youth, and an abiding fondness for Annie Potts.
I think it wholly depends on the relationship. There are people I work with or have worked with in which a certain amount of, um, something existed (sexual tension? chemistry? I dunno…). These are people I am much more careful with, because of the ever-so-slight blurring of the line that might already exist. There are others with whom I have a completely professional and/or platonic friendly relationship with, whom I am less hesitant. Now, I’m married and have been in a relationship basically my entire professional life, with absolutely no interest in pursuing anyone else. Which isn’t to say I don’t still have maybe-slightly-more-flirty-than-it-ought-to-be relationship with some colleagues, but I draw the line there. And, with that line in mind, I’m less likely to offer a compliment.
Of course, I’m also sort of oblivious and don’t know crap about fashion. I’m always the last to notice that someone has gotten a new haircut and am never comfortable commenting on a woman’s weight, even if a complimentary way (maybe this is unfair, but I always fear the response will be, “So you’re saying I was fat?”). In all honesty, I’m most likely to comment on something I don’t like, in a falsely positive way, because it is more likely to grab my attention but I don’t want to be mean. So when the girl across the hall got a horrible haircut that you couldn’t help but notice, I felt compelled to say, “Wow! Nice ‘do!”
I think age matters. Sometimes I feel that, as a 28-year-old, there are things I can’t say to colleagues that someone older might be able to. Not really sure how to explain it, but one 28-year-old saying to another 28-year-old, “I like that skirt,” *seems* different than a 45-year-old saying it.
Honestly, I have no fuckin’ clue… Great question!
Of course, I’m also sort of oblivious and don’t know crap about fashion. I’m always the last to notice that someone has gotten a new haircut and am never comfortable commenting on a woman’s weight, even if a complimentary way (maybe this is unfair, but I always fear the response will be, “So you’re saying I was fat?”).
Me too. I don’t even congratulate obviously pregnant co-workers until I’ve been told officially, just in case. I once complimented a male co-worker on the suit he was wearing and asked, jokingly, if he was going to a job interview. Turned out it was a funeral.
Oh, man, that’s like a line straight out of the original BBC “The Office”.
So when the girl across the hall got a horrible haircut that you couldn’t help but notice, I felt compelled to say, “Wow! Nice ‘do!”
Please, don’t encourage bad haircuts. I die a little bit on the inside every time an otherwise pretty girl gets a horrible haircut and keeps it that way because she keeps getting compliments from nice people.
I’m with Brandon on this one. There has to be a nice way to tell me, or my best friend, that the haircut is horrible. I don’t know what it is, but I would rather you say that you prefer it the other way than nothing at all. Silence is deafening.
Oh, I’m not saying it’s right… just that I tend to do it!
These are people I don’t know well enough to say, “What’d you do to your head, stupid?” (I do have female friends I can and do say this to, btw.)
Again, I tend to either A) not even know something changed or B) avoid commenting on it, since it seems more trouble than it’s worth. I also don’t particularly like receiving compliments… or, more to the point, am not good at receiving them, so I never really got into the free exchange of them.
Unless I was actually trying to get laid… than everything the girl did was “like the cutest thing I”d ever seen”.
“Sometimes I feel that, as a 28-year-old, there are things I can’t say to colleagues that someone older might be able to. Not really sure how to explain it, but one 28-year-old saying to another 28-year-old, ‘I like that skirt,’ *seems* different than a 45-year-old saying it.”
Each experience is unique, but I interpret in a completely different way than I think you do. I in no way believe that other women my age feel the same way, but I am more likely to be attracted to a smart, funny, older man that gives me attention than a young, physically attractive guy that I have no feelings for. It just depends on the individual. I can’t generalize.
I was looking at it more like:
1.) My peer, who is well within the typical range of people I’d cavort with
versus
2.) My older colleague, who is closer in age to my dad/mom than me
Of course, it depends on what your cup of tea is. If you prefer older men/women, your groups will differ.
In my case, the girl/lady in question is my same age and shares many of the same interests as me. Though I would never date her (again, I’m married, and she’s not really my type), we make more sense together than many other combos of people in the school, which makes me hesitant. And probably wrongly so.
Rose-
As a woman, what impacts how you take the comment?
Does the attractiveness of the man matter? Age?
I have a female colleague, who is pretty forward and that’s just how she is, who will often tell me something I’m wearing is cute or notice if I’ve lost weight. I’m often flattered but otherwise think nothing of it (she’s married and 10+ years my senior). However, I would never say those things to her. Strange. Again, I don’t know what to make of all this. I’ll just default back to keeping my head down and being oblivious.
Two things make a difference for me. One is if I sense there is an actual attempt to turn things sexual (although, if it’s just an asking out from someone who doesn’t realize I’m married, I don’t care). The only other thing that would bother me is a serious power differential. If someone in direct immediate authority over the course of my career – so if it were from my advisor. Actually, my advisor sometimes comments on how I look after various pregnancy recoveries, and that’s fine, too. So I guess just something genuinely sexual, with increased sensitivity if someone has authority over me. Once in a while, a student makes a comment, which makes me SERIOUSLY uncomfortable, although if it’s a female or gay student, it wouldn’t bother me as much.
Something lightly flirtatious or complimentary, from any guy at any age of any level of attractiveness, is just fine. Often flattering! I am outgoing and chatty, yet not flirtatious, so I think people feel comfortable saying things to me they might not to others.
Also, probably relevant that I’m in my late 30s and not absolutely gorgeous. If I were, I might be more inclined to read compliments as attempts.
This question is obviously directed at Rose, but I’m going to answer anyway. Feel free to ignore my response.
The things that usually turn a nice compliment into Ick are usually body language, tone, history between the person and I, and where they are looking. Please do not talk to me while staring at my breasts, especially not when giving me a compliment. It seems like common sense, but you wouldn’t believe how frequently it happens.
I wouldn’t say that attractiveness of the man matters as much as whether I am attracted to them or not. And more importantly, whether I know they are attracted to me or not. I frequently find myself attracted to people for a variety of reason’s, so whether a man is “hot” or not does not always have the greatest impact.
As for age… yes, of course that plays a part. I’m 25. When a man my age (between 25 and 30) gives me a compliment, I have a different reaction than when a man significantly older notices me. I appreciate the opinion of an older man more. I never pay attention when a younger man compliments me because I’m never attracted to younger people.
Hey Mary!
Didn’t see you there, but your perspective is certainly appreciated!
Sounds like there is a certain extent of just knowing… some things just sit well and some don’t.
I asked about attractiveness because I see broader situations where that seems to factor in. If a handsome guy saunters up to a lady in a bar and offers to buy her a drink, she’ll often react differently than an ugly dude. And much of that is to be expected. But often their assessment differs, too. Which doesn’t make sense. “Oh my god, this totally dreamy guy did the SWEETEST thing!” versus “Ugh, this total weirdo totally creeped me out.” And this despite the act being identical. That is obviously different than the situation described here, but I was curious if they were analogous at all.
“some things just sit well and some don’t.”
Isn’t it the same way for men? Or does it depend on how attractive the woman is?
What you say about women reacting differently to attractive men vs. “ugly dude” makes me sad inside. I’m sure that happens, but women like that make me ashamed to me a woman. You can say it is youthful optimism, but I would like to think people judge other people on their overall behavior and opinions instead of how they look.
For the record, I have never had a guy saunter up to me in a bar and offer to buy me a drink. Conversations that point that out to me make me feel physically unappealing.
shh…I don’t go to bars enough to care.
Miss Mary, I am certain that those people are not judging based on appearance, but based on charisma.
It took a while for my husband to understand that the women who were buying him drinks in bars actually wanted him to stroll over and chat…
“some things just sit well and some don’t.”
This was meant to more broadly incorporate some of the things you mentioned, such as body language, tone, etc. Sometimes you can’t really articulate why one comment was innoccuous while another was not, but that doesn’t make it any less true that they might have been very, very different.
As to the extent to which attractiveness factored in to the assessment of the folks, I’m sure the phenomenon is not exclusive to women. I believe Tyra Banks did something on this where she went around in either a fat suit or makeup to make her look uglier and was shocked that people didn’t fall all over themselves to be nice to her. I tend to be equal parts flattered and creeped out by any girl or woman coming on to me… attention feels good, but it is always unwanted. So I might say, “This hot chick totally creeped me out,” or “This fat chick totally creeped me out.”
I don’t know how regular an occurrence the whole, “Can I buy you a drink thing?” really is. I have one friend (short, fat, prematurely bald) who used it all the time. I never once did (primarily because I didn’t want to talk to a girl who would only talk to me if I bought her a drink… the only times I bought drinks for girls were after we had already connected). But I’m sure you’ve had guys do nice things for you and would challenge you to consider the different ways you responded and why.
Handsome and ugly aren’t the words. You can do about anything, so long as you’ve got a good charisma, and you don’t have obviously mangled clothes. Look like you take care of yourself, and don’t have a completely hideous (read assymettric) face, and you’re pretty much good to go.
Handsome (charismatic/appealing) guy comes up to you — that says “hey, I must be hot and pretty…” it’s flattering.
Ugly guy comes up to you — “I must look desperate, cheap, like an easy lay”
Note: this is probably less of an issue when it’s not a bar.
So, wait, if the ugly guy is as charismatic as he is ugly (that is to say, lots of both), he gets the former response or the latter?
I will tell you I just gave the super sweet guy on his Mac at the cell phone store more attention than the young, toned paintball player attempting to chat me up about my motorcycle. Yes, Kazzy, charisma counts.
Kazzy,
If you’re charismatic, you ain’t ugly. Look at Ben Franklin if you don’t believe me.
(so if you aren’t completely fall on your face hideous, and you can pull off “reasonably charismatic” you get a decent reception.)
Kimmi makes sense. A person can be appealing without the help of good looks. In addition to charisma, I would say competence is important. I would say confidence, but that can turn into being cocky real quick.
Rose is a professor. There’s a degree of “I’ve got status” there, that allows people to say things to her.
I’m a software developer (I dress in slacks and a plain blouse), in a workforce where most women are analysts.
Nobody male has ever complimented me at work on my appearance.
I would consider it rather inappropriate if someone did, honestly. (other than something -slightly- appreciative if I dressed up before presenting at a meetin — something like “lookin’ good”).
Women do not tend to take it well when people compliment them on their appearance, in general. If women do it, it might/probably is catty (there’s always the ” you didn’t compliment my other clothes, are you trying to say something…”).
In general? I’d focus less on complimenting the clothes, and compliment the person. “You’re looking cheerful today!” “you’re looking energetic.”
If a guy compliments a woman on her appearance, it is in a society where women are judged based on their appearance — seen as commodities valued for how “pretty” they can look. It implies that you’re judging her based on a framework where women in the workforce are not there “to do their job” but also as commodities to be inspected.
I’m bringing this up, because it really ought to affect what people say.
(this is not to say that you can’t step outside the framework — a guy who loves a skirt (or coat), and wants to wear it on the weekend, that’s a bit different)
Just for the record, when I compliment a skirt it has nothing to do with a desire on my part to wear it. That’s… not my scene. When I compliment a skirt, it’s because I think it looks nice.
When I compliment a skirt
Good Lord, Russell, be respectful. Call them “broads” or “frails”.
I prefer “sheila.” It makes me seem more cosmopolitan, no? No?
Not a prof for another 6 months. Grad student and instructor. Decidedly low status.
“Women do not tend to take it well when people compliment them on their appearance, in general. If women do it, it might/probably is catty (there’s always the ” you didn’t compliment my other clothes, are you trying to say something…”).”
I could not disagree more. I understand that some women may feel that way, but I know many women (myself included) that *love* getting compliments. My agency employs about 75-80 people and only 7 of those are men. If I, and every other woman I work with, couldn’t take a compliment from a woman, we would be screwed.
“In general? I’d focus less on complimenting the clothes, and compliment the person. “You’re looking cheerful today!” “you’re looking energetic.””
Great rule of thumb. Can’t go wrong with this.
Me too. Like compliments from women. And gay men. And gay women. Basically, if anyone wants to lay one on me, I’m ready!
Rose, you look smashing.
Wooohoooo! I feel all the sincerity behind that.
… like a crash test dummy.
I just call my female co-workers “dude” and figure it will work out.
You’re probably safe with that, JB. *I* have never felt threatened when a man refers to me as one of the guys. In fact, there is probably nothing less sexy. I find men who do that make great friends and are almost never boyfriend material.
But if he includes you on the group email discussing or displaying porn, then what?
I have heard that such environments exist. I find it shocking to imagine that such environments would exist post-email, but there we are.
In any case, I have never worked in such an environment. I cannot imagine working in such an environment.
True. I guess I’m straying from the workplace based discussion, because I can’t imagine some of the things that Kazzy describes happening in a workplace.
Is this a real question? Do men really do that?!
Give a ladies perspective on the topic or say that it makes you uncomfortable. If you are really friends with these guys, then you must feel comfortable saying *something*.
*snort* I would not work in such an environment.
That’s a level of unprofessionality that is mindboggling.
… I think I know exactly what I’d do, if I really wanted to tweak those guys tails, though. Probably a few days before quitting. “here’s this twenty page story…” and whenever I saw those guys, pester them for coherent, intelligent critiques. Possibly tweaking them by asking questions about physical positioning…
I was referring to largely non-work situations.
One of the bennies of being old is having pretty much 98% of my circle being hitched.
We sometimes do include the ladies on our more raunchy (personal) email chains. They tend to tell us how gross we are. We respond that this is what happens when they insist on being on our email chains.
Dude, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Tod-
As I should have said from the onset, I was referring strictly to personal emails between friends. I do have some email chains with colleagues (on both work and personal servers) that are more personal in nature, but I tread very, very lightly in all of those.
But it does make me wonder… I have some colleagues at work (we are all teachers, so we’re on equal footing) with whom I am Facebook friends with. They will sometimes wonder into an R- or X-rated conversation amongst my friends and I on my page. Any special precautions I need to take? My feeling is that this is no different than if they voluntarily joined a group of people at a house party or a bar and stumbled into an inappropriate conversation which they were free to exit whenever they wanted. Obviously, the former leaves a paper trail that the latter doesn’t, but is there any risk from such things?
(FWIW, I don’t accept all colleagues as friends on Facebook… only people who I legitimately call friends AND who I am confident now me well enough to understand the degree to which FB is silly performance art. So I don’t reasonably anticipate a problem arising, but better to know the risks…)
My response would probably be… mostly honest.
If you were passing around goth-lolis, you’d probably get a mostly entertaining rant.
If you were passing around really creepy dissection porn, with anatomically correct guts? i’d call you a sick motherfucker. *smiles sweetly* and then I might reciprocate.
If you were just passing around vanilla porn, I’d probably just critique the art.
The porn stuff is probably the LEAST offensive of most of what we sent. And least entertaining, as well.
On the other hand, you have a thread like the recent one wherein we compared the salinity of various Bloody Mary ingredients to semen. After several rounds of this, one of the ladies finally weighed in with, “How do all you guys no what semen tastes like?” Stopped the thread right there…
” They will sometimes wonder into an R- or X-rated conversation amongst my friends and I on my page. Any special precautions I need to take?”
Just be very, very careful of either the content you put of FB, or who you allow to see it. One of the growing trends in harassment legislation is using social media content as “proof” of the tendencies of coworkers that point toward a hostile work environment. Which is to say that a coworker can’t sue you for what you put on FB, but they can sue your employer for a hostile work environment, and point to your FB entries as a sign of what they have to endure in the workplace.
Spell check corrected that to read “legislation,” it should have been “litigation.”
I will admit, in my late teens and early 20’s, the interactions between the sexes of everybody heterosexual in the circle could charitably be categorized as “sexual harassment”. Now? We just sit around and talk about how we used to always harass each other.
(A joke made to a member of the circle who went in for breast reduction surgery. Two weeks later, when she was up to having company, “Oh it’s so good to see you. My god, your eyes are gorgeous.” “Thanks, Jay”, she said, with a tone that conveyed a light mixture of irritation and affection. I was afraid that I had overstepped bounds until she started repeating the joke to everyone who arrived later on in the evening.)
So, Tod, if during home hours my friends and I engage in an explicit conversation about sex on FB and one of my colleagues jumps into the fray and, while suffering no direct abuse, is subjected to the types of language typical of a conversation about sex held by 20-something men, my employer could be sued for that? Even if the way in which I held myself during the after-hours FB conversation and the way in which I hold myself at school are night and day? Yeesh!
To be clear, they wouldn’t sue your employer for what you did. They’d sue your employer for negligence in preventing a hostile work environment. Then they’d point to your FB as an example of the things that you and your coworkers did at work.
For you the more realistic risk might be on the other end. Assuming you teach in a public school, you might soon have a work social media policy, which puts you at risk for discipline if a coworker complains about something they found inappropriate on FB.
My best advice is to use FB only for coworkers that are actual friends outside of work, and use something else like LinkedIn to do professional networking.
I’m in a private school, but it is only a matter of time before such policies become universal.
That is pretty much what I do now. You need to know me well enough to understand the humor I am likely to use on FB before I even considering accepting a request. Other folks get LinkedIn. As far as I see it, FB is *PURELY* social. I’m more likely to delete or block people than accept anyone, as evidenced by my ever shrinking “friend list”.
Thanks for the advice.
Let me add my voice in harmony with Tod’s here. What you put on Facebook, what you send on an e-mail, anything in any electronic medium, should always be considered a) permanent and indelible, b) broadcast not just to the named recipients but to the world at large including your enemies and-yes-you-do-too-have-enemies, c) susceptibe of interpretation in the very worst imaginable way no matter how divorced that interpretation might be from the original context and d) subject to discovery and display to a jury of twelve skeptical people in a lawsuit who weren’t smart enough to figure out how to get out of jury duty.
And THAT is why no one invites you to their parties, Likko.
Fortunately, I’ve got at least one to go to! You’re welcome there, too. If you haven’t made your reservation yet, I can’t guarantee the group rate, but all the same I hope to see you in Las Vegas in a few weeks!
I have no problem with complimenting a female coworker on their appearance, but I have to say there are caveats. For example, I am much more likely to say it to a peer than a subordinate. Also, I am fairly careful about the way that I compliment a female coworker. So, to use Kazzy’s example, I would never tell a woman in my office that she “looked great in those pants,” any more than I would say “I love it when you wear those tight sweaters.”
But bottom line (no pun intended), my experience has been that the more a man treats women in their workplace as equal human beings, the less likely women are to take offense at a compliment. When I’ve seen a woman get angry or creeped out by a male coworker saying “Man, you look great today,” it’s really rarely that comment alone that triggered the negative reaction – it’s usually all the stuff that the guy did or said before that is the issue.
“But bottom line (no pun intended), my experience has been that the more a man treats women in their workplace as equal human beings, the less likely women are to take offense at a compliment.”
If women want me to live a life based on lies, I have little objection to that. But let’s just call it what it is…
:-p
Good helpdesk people need good bedside manner. I used to be a great helpdesk person.
Some people are ribald, some are reserved, some need a brightening of their day, others are not in the mood to exchange banter with anybody.
I play to the audience. It works out pretty well.
I practice employment law, a good chunk of it sexual harassment. Consequently, I am significantly reluctant to dispense compliments to female co-workers about their appearance at work. Probably moreso than I really need to be, but you can’t do what I do without being aware of the risks.
While I am friendly and professional in demeanor, the women pretty much have to fish for a compliment to get one out of me. About the only exception I make is when I notice a new hairstyle, in which case I ask if the hairstyle is new, wait for the smile from the change being recognized, and then (and only then) out comes the praise.
Well, except for this one time, when I noticed my paralegal coming to work with an unusually fetching hairstyle and a lower-cut top than usual. And hose, which she almost never wears. “What’s up, [paralegal]?” I asked. “Is that a new outfit?” She responded by indicating that she had a date immediately after work, and then fished for a compliment. I said, “Yeah, I think he’s going to be pleased. Um, you maybe should the office manager.” “Oh, I did already. She already told me not to come to work dressed like this. It’s just that my date is right after work, like right at 5:30, and I really like this guy.” (Because the dress code doesn’t apply to her when she really likes the guy, apparently.)
Does your dress code actually include the words, “lower cut top than usual”?
This feels fear based. You are so worried about making a mistake you forget to be polite. Why should someone have to fish for a compliment? Just tell they look nice so they can feel better about not looking terrible.
But – and this is an important ‘but’ – don’t follow it up with, “so give me some sugar baby.”
TRUST ME ON THIS. I know.
Is that why you are such an expert on sexual harassment, Tod?
Mary-
I tend not to give out compliments in general, at least not regarding physical appearances, male or female. It’s not like I’m bursting at the seams to tell someone how darling their shoes are but beat that urge down. Which is why, if I suddenly gushed about something, it’d seem particularly out of place. But thats just me. Folks should just do what feels right.
Oh my gosh, Kazzy, it’s fine. If you aren’t the complimenting type, fine. It’s optional. Don’t do it if it makes you uncomfortable. I just think that people are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. We are talking about brightening someone’s day. Like Patrick said, play to the audience. If it’s not for you, move on. I promise not to walk up to you in school and tell you that I like anything about you.
Don’t be sleazy about it, if you do decide to do it and keep it to a minimum at work.
In a word… yes.
Soft chuckle:
On a historical note (i.e. in the mores of an earlier generation) I learned early on that if one sent flowers to one secretary for a job well done, that it was smart, within a reasonable time scale, to find occasion to do it to one or more others.
I’m a software engineer, so this pretty much never comes up.