First, Alyssa went and started watching the X-Files (so all of this is clearly her fault). Then Erik had to chime in on whether or not the X-files was science fiction or fantasy. Jaybird tossed in $0.02 and finally Todd chimed in.
Since being wrong on Friday now seems to be a thing, I will tell you all the way it ought to be.
There are three ways to differentiate between science fiction and fantasy.
The first way saves a lot of time, it’s Jaybird’s mentioning of Orson Scott Card’s method. “Science fiction has rivets and fantasy has trees.” If your real desire is to find something to read and you have a personal hankerin’ to have a dragon be part of your story, it’s much easier for you to find what you’re looking for if dragons = fantasy and all the fantasy books are over there on the back shelf of the bookstore, and spaceships = science fiction and they’re on the next shelf.
People who split fantasy and science fiction up this way are the same sort of folks who just sort of shrug at classification systems for their literature and say things like, “It’s all speculative fiction with different window trappings. If you like curtains, you go with fantasy, and if you like shutters, you go with science fiction, but it’s really all the same gig. I just want something to read.”
These people are all correct, and this is a perfectly reasonable way to decide what bucket you ought to put “The Dragonriders of Pern” into when you’re sorting through your book pile. After all, the point of the classification system is to be able to find what you’re looking for later, and so you’ll know what’s in the bucket, right?
They’re also crazy and wrong and I pity them for their shortcomings.
The second way to differentiate these things is to attempt to establish some sort of bipolar differentiation that doesn’t rely on just window trappings… or at the far OCD side of the spectrum, a continuum where one end is hard science fiction and the other is wild mythic fantasy, and all the works of literature that you’re trying to categorize fall on the number line somewhere. This works fine as well, it’s basically what Tod was doing with “character” instead of “window trappings” in his post.
Again, this is all correct, and this is a perfectly reasonable way to decide what bucket you ought to put “The Dragonriders of Pern” into when you’re sorting through your book pile. Except, you’ll note, that Tod has a problem deciding where to put The Dragonriders of Pern and it has a special rule that falls back on the first method. The point of the classification system is to be able to find what you’re looking for later, and so you’ll know what’s in the bucket, right? Except now we have squishy bits where we need to find out where on the continuum something fits when it doesn’t seem to fit somewhere naturally, which is hard when you have works that embody characteristics of both Hard SF and Mythic Fantasy.
Where the hell do you put anything by PKD? Surrealistic Science Fantasy? Where does that go on a continuum?
So these people are also crazy and wrong and I pity them for their shortcomings.
The third way is to look at this as a question of literary tradition. Based upon his comments on Tod’s thread, I suspect Jason will immediately get on board with this one. I think Mike probably will as well. In this case, “fantasy” works are those works which feed off of the literary tradition of mythic heroes, great mysteries, faith, the ineffability of existence and/or struggles with Fate/The Gods. Fantasy novels follow a literary tradition that goes back to Beowulf, The Epic of Gilgamesh, The Iliad and the Odyssey, The Aeneid, the traditions of Irish heroes like Cú Chulainn and Fionn mac Cumhaill, even characters from older religious texts like the Bible and the Hindu Puranas (examples not given in chronological order, obviously). Tod comes close to this, by recognizing that character is an integral part of fantasy literature; he’s correct, it is. But the mythic hero is almost by definition not us. They far exceed the human norm in capabilities or pride, or both. Even the tiny Hobbits of Tolkein’s work are central to the story because Frodo has the strength of will to carry the ring, where a normal human would not. Oh, and the hubris. Hubris is big in fantasy: the true mythic hero spits in the eye of Fate, attempts the impossible, and usually succeeds (albeit, often, with Consequences). Fantasy is about individualism in the face of the paranormal. It is about unknowns, or unknowables.
Science fiction, on the other hand, has very little to do with human character, and everything to do with the character of humanity (this is where Tod dog-legged right instead of left). Science fiction is about science, as Steven and Wardsmith point out… or most accurately, it is about technology and the effects on the human condition. “Real” science fiction, by this classification method, doesn’t include Star Wars or Space Opera -> the first is clearly fantasy (turn the spaceships into naval ships and the death star superlaser into a nuclear bomb illustrates how little “advanced technology” has to do with the narrative of Star Wars, it’s really just fun pulp fiction).
In science fiction, the characters aren’t typically as superhuman as they are in fantasy, but that’s not because “normal human heroes” are an essential feature of science fiction, it’s because the characters in good science fiction are stand-ins for humanity. How they respond to the fundamental changes in their society that have been enabled by technology that does not yet exist, either as individuals or as a collective, (and, typically, whether this is Bad or Good) is basically what the story is actually about. Science fiction is about altered human sociopolitical reality. It is about knowns or knowables, even if they are just fictional ones.
Now, of course, this is a lot more complicated method of differentiating between the two, as you have to read everything, digest what it’s about, and put it either in the Science Fiction bucket, or the Fantasy bucket (or the Horror bucket, or the Pulp fiction bucket where all other speculative fiction lives). Since there are books that can be read both ways, you can argue about which bucket they truly belong in, although this is usually where I throw up my hands and say, “Shoot, it transcends simple classification as it is truly a work of greatness and nothing else can describe it.” One can go down the rabbit hole and spend far too much time musing about whether a work is this or that or the other. It certainly lacks the time saving methods of the first method.
Which is why these people are also crazy and wrong and I pity them for their shortcomings. I just happen to fit here. And this is the right place to be, sayeth I.
“Hubris is big in fantasy: the true mythic hero spits in the eye of Fate, attempts the impossible, and usually succeeds (albeit, often, with Consequences).”
This is what everyone thinks the Iliad is about.
“Fantasy is about individualism in the face of the paranormal.”
This is what it’s actually about, more or less (where “individualism” = “choice” and “the paranormal” = “death”).
Not really apropos, but I had to throw it in there.
Hubris is more what Beowulf is about than the Illiad. I’m on board with you, Ryan.
… I dunno. A lot of science fiction is about alien takes on humanity. Shattered mirrors and all that.
When this is about how we vs. aliens deal with technology, it’s science fiction.
When it’s about aliens take on humanity, it can likely just be pulp fiction (the adventurer in the jungle).
OK, I am a bit confused – mostly about where it is we disagree. For example, this:
“the characters in good science fiction are stand-ins for humanity”
sounds not all that dissimilar to my claim that sic-fi protagonists are the everyman.
Best I can tell the only place we disagree on anything to a significant degree is this:
“Science fiction is about science”
Fahrenheit 451 has “science” in it, sure, what with it’s beetle cars and fireproof houses. But it’s not a story about science. Neither are any of the stories in the Martian Chronicles. The Little Fuzzies book that you steered my toward (thanks, btw!) certainly requires a society with advanced science to get the protagonist where he needs to be to set the story’s chain of motion, but the book’s not about science. It’s about colonization, sentience and the struggles of the powerless against the powerful.
science fiction about science is when you’re talking sentient computer creatures that coexist with us in our heads, and how society adjusts to that.
Fahrenheit 451 isn’t science fiction, it’s dystopian fiction.
The Fuzzy books are light science fiction, because the veridicators (and the implications of “teaching the Fuzzies to lie”) show a technology < -> society effect that’s pretty central to the story; but they’re also mostly just “other speculative fiction” for what you say here.
It’s not all that dissimilar to your claim, but the impression I got from your post was that you were talking about the difference between science fiction and fantasy being embedded in the character explication as a foundational difference.
In science fiction, character is a proximal characteristic, not a root one. The characters are who they are because them being who they are furthers the storyline’s ability to tell the story of the technology and the society.
In fantasy, the nature of the character is a root characteristic. Them being who they are *is* the storyline of the conflict between them and Fate/whathaveyou.
Subtle difference.
I’m going to call foul on this:
“Fahrenheit 451 isn’t science fiction, it’s dystopian fiction.”
I just goggled “100 Greatest Science function Novels,” and every list on the first page of results has both F451 and 1984, as well as Brave New World and Clockwork Orange. In almost every list 1984 and F451 are in the top 10, if not the top 5.
While I agree that these are dystopian series, I think if it is universally agreed upon that these books are not only sic-fi but pinnacle sic-fi you have to include them.
Pfaugh.
People can believe whatever they want. I reject the tyranny of the masses. Even expert masses!
Clockwork Orange and 1984 are both dystopian and science fiction. In both cases, there is a technology bit (brainwashing, ubiquitous surveillance) that has an impact on society.
Fahrenheit 451 is about totalitarianism. But think about it in terms of its contemporary time. Nothing exists in Fahrenheit 451 that didn’t exist in 1953.
Really, if the Nazis hadn’t lost but sued for peace (and gotten away with it), the difference between the “reality” of Fahrenheit 451 and Nazi Germany circa 1953 (when Fahrenheit was published) wouldn’t really be all that great, now would it?
The only reason why F451 is called science fiction is because it was grandfathered in from back when all speculative fiction was all put in either the “scifi” or “fantasy” bucket. “Alternative history” is it’s own bag.
I think there’s room in science fiction for F451 and The Man in the High Castle, both have a lot more to do with exploring humanity in a fundamentally different world. though their world differences are based more on political changes rather than technological ones. They certainly seem more like a lot of sci-fi than any of the ‘alt-history’ I’ve read.
In the end, all genre classification systems cannot hold up to close scrutiny of marginal cases.
> In the end, all genre classification systems
> cannot hold up to close scrutiny of
> marginal cases.
True. This is what makes arguing about them fun.
I thought it was just a typo, but seeing it so much it must be deliberate. So, wherefore ‘sic-fi’? (vice ‘sci-fi’)
Oh, Kolohe… You so underestimate my ability to made multiple and obvious typos and spelling errors.
I had an insight whilst talking with Maribou earlier:
Fantasy has females. Science fiction doesn’t.
I shared this with her and she did that “laughing while trying not to kill me” thing that she does.
It was more of a “I would kill you, if only I could stop laughing.” Which, you know, also happens a lot.
Science fiction* has a lot of females**!
* for science fiction written after 1972
** actually, not gonna qualify this, for safety’s sake
Dudes with ladyparts are not, technically, females even if they do, technically, have ladyparts.
this is honestly true. Early sci-fi was kinda really bad about characterizing what women there were. But then again, miscegenation and stuff are nearly incomprehensible to the modern mind, even though Lovecraft was obsessed with them.
Arguing about the difference between fantasy and sci-fi is like arguing about the difference between an elf and a science officer. You’re confusing race with class.