(I feel like we might have done this before, here at MD or elsewhere, but who cares, I’m doing it again!)
Inspired by a recent viewing of “The Announcement”, the documentary on Earvin “Magic” Johnson coming to terms with his contraction of HIV, here is the basketball team I would construct if we were facing off against an alien squad with the future of humanity at stake:
PG: Magic Johnson- most talented all-around PG ever and capable of contributing mightily without scoring, an important trait for a PG on this team.
SG: Michael Jordan- the GOAT, at least for now, who can dominate on both ends of the court.
SF: LeBron James- what used to be a tough call between him and Bird has firmly tipped to LBJ; not a slight on Bird in anyway, simply an acknowledgement of LeBron’s transcendent greatness.
PF: Tim Duncan- his defense, spacing, and selflessness fit this team perfectly, plus he might be the best PF ever anyway.
C: Bill Russell- A case could be made for Shaq, Chamberlain, and maybe others. But given the offensive talent already present, a defensive and rebounding specialist anchoring an already formidable front court who doesn’t need to score gets the nod.
Agreed? Good.
If proposing your own team, please adhere to the following rules:
1.) We assume every player is at the peak of his ability and has the benefit of modern training techniques.
2.) Players must play at a position they played regularly during their career. In another year or two, LBJ might qualify at PF, but for now, he’s a SF and SF only.
3.) Defense matters. It’s half the game, people.
4.) Humanity ceases to be if we lose the game. Don’t fuck around, people. I don’t care how much of a Lakers homer you might be… putting Kobe Bryant on the team is a death sentence for our species.
I disagree that Kobe is a death nail. If he played any other position, I’d put him on the team. But since he’s a 2, well… there’s only one greatest ever.
I have no real problems with this line up; it might well be the one I’d have chosen. If I had any hesitations at all, it would be with the 1 or the 5 spot. I might want a CP3 at the point, since I could see Magic being a liability on the defensive end for a quick, small PG. And maybe – MAYBE – I’d consider The Dream for the 5 spot, since Russell was tall for the 60s NBA but not so much for the modern era. (Hakeem was only an inch taller, but he had that spectacular wingspan.)
But really, I like your line up a lot.
Magic may be a defensive liability, both in general and certainly when compared to the others in the lineup, but I think the others can more than make up for it. A penetrating PG isn’t going to do much with LeBron, Duncan, and Russell down low. And with LBJ and MJ cutting off passing lanes, drive-and-kick won’t work so well either. CP3 is in the Magic mold, at least in terms of being able to dominate without scoring but being able to contribute that way if needed.
Was Olajuwon really only 6-10? I always assumed him to be a true 7-footer. I’m a sucker for Olajuwon in many ways… I’m weird in that I really enjoy watching good low-post play predicated on foot work. I once watched 25 minutes of YouTube videos featuring Olajuwon’s many post moves and I recently argued with a friend that Memphis is an exciting basketball team to watch because of Z-Bo’s face up game.
Gun to my head, , if choosing just between the two, I’d probably take Olajuwon over Shaq, likely putting me in a minority. Part of that is predicated on my feeling that Shaq never got the most out of his talent, which doesn’t change how good he was from an absolute standpoint, but gives me pause if I’m choosing to go to war with the guy. I relegated Olajuwon to the “other guys” group in the OP because I didn’t want to get into an argument in which I had to link to those YouTube videos to show why The Dream should be in the conversation and have everyone think I’m weird for marveling at a well-executed drop step. Then again, this is the internet (generally) and Mindless Diversions (specifically) and is exactly what I should have sought.
If you put The Dream on, I wouldn’t argue with you.
On Kobe, if I allowed you to play guys out of position, would you opt for a 3-guard or small ball alignment and remove one of the big guys?
But if a CP3 like player drives and pulls a Russell or LeBron over to help, I’m waiting for the lob-dunk for the unguarded big man.
As for the Kobe at the 3 and small ball possibility? You know, 12 months ago I would have done it in a heart beat, since for years I have thought of LBJ as the most naturally gifted baller ever, but a guy who lacked the mental fortitude and the willingness to work hard to improve in the off season to be Great. But I don’t feel like I can can say that anymore.
So now I’d go with LBJ over #24 at the 3.
Besides, having #23 and #24 on the same team is just asking for one to eventually give the other a bloody nose in the locker room. I don’t know that basketball has ever had such alpha-like alphas as Kobe and MJ. I can’t imagine them on the same team.
Good point on CP3’s exceptional lob tossing. Part of the decision will come down to whether or not we can play a true zone on defense. If so, Magic’s deficiencies are much less a concern. Has the NCAA unilaterally extended its jurisdiction to include the outer limits of the galaxy?
Whom do you substitue in after Kobe and MJ kill each other?
Dan Majerle?
Someone who has the skills, but not the ego, like Rick Barry.
Oops.
Death Nail is an awesome metal band, probably.
Where do Meadowlark and “Curly” fit in?
If there comes a time where a bucket of confetti is needed, we’ll pull them off the bench.
Dude, they beat the ever-living crap out the the Washington Generals.
Not to mention Goose and Shemp.
PG: John Stockton
SG: Oscar Robertson
SF: Lebron James
PF: Kevin Durant
C: Bill Russell
I want a team. That means no Jordan and no Kobe. Also, I’m bummed than neither Olajuwon nor Sabonis made it into my starting lineup.
Jordan’s struggles with teammates seemed limits to teams he thought they weren’t worthy of his greatness. But they never manifested on the court and he successfully managed with another truly elite player, albeit a relatively selfless one. Amidst other greats and with the leadership of Russell and Magic, I don’t think you’d have an issue.
Kobe’s issues seem bigger and would rightly disqualify him if I were making the team.
I’d be curious to see how the aliens respond to Stockton’s dirty tactics.
You picked John Stockton?
I don’t know that I can ever take you seriously about basketball again. I’ll just D up everybody else and let Stockton melt down.
I like the idea of casually D’ing up Oscar Robertson, Lebron James, and Kevin Durant, and I also like the idea that choosing the NBA’s career leader in steals and assists – a guy who doesn’t not get injured, incidentally – is a bad idea at the one.
Bring it Cahalan.
Counting stats, unadjusted for context… boo-his!
We might need to conduct an all-time fantasy draft of sorts. Two squads… 5v5… losing coach leaves the LoOG. Or some other such penalty worse than death.
Ask and ye shall receive.
You said above that defense mattered. Stockton stole the ball more than anybody else who ever played the game; what context explains that dominance away?
You realize defense involves much more than steals, right? A number of players (e.g., Allen Iverson) racked up impressive steals numbers by cheating passing lanes but ultimately were of little, no, or negative value on the defensive end because their high-risk approach gave up so much in ways that aren’t easily calculated.
Dude made the NBA’s All Defensive team five times; I’m pretty sure he earned it by doing more than simply jumping the passing lanes. That said: routinely creating turnovers while also distributing while also playing pretty much every game while also jumping the passing lanes while also happily existing in the game’s relative shadows? That’s enough for me.
But if it wasn’t enough for me, the sheer volume of his assists and steals would be enough. Because it isn’t just that he’s a little bit better distributing the ball than anybody who has ever played the game just as he isn’t just a little better at stealing it. He is ahead of his next closest competitors in both categories by HUGE margins: he has 3700 more assists and 600 more steals than Jason Kidd (who is second in both categories).
Counting totals tell us nothing about peak talent. Plain and simple. You’ve yet to address that point, yet constantly refer back to career assist and steal totals.
Kazzy,
You and I obviously disagree about what those totals tell us. I think the reveal the idea point guard; you don’t. I really don’t think there’s a middle ground here between Magic Johnson and John Stockton – unless Cahalan was onto something with John Starks.
Sam,
I realize there are different roles that a PG might play, and depending on the team dynamics, those roles will have different values.
But what I don’t understand is how you can deny that career totals are just as much a function of career length and playing time as they are peak ability.
And I should make clear that any perceived hostility on my part is all in good fun. This is a bar argument as far as I’m concerned (bargument?) and carries no weight in dealings elsewhere.
Here’s an article making your point for you: http://dimemag.com/2011/11/john-stockton-the-nbas-greatest-ordinary-player/
It might be enough to make me reconsider.
That article might be a bit too harsh…
PG play is hard to evaluate because probably more than anyone else on the court, their value is impacted by the surrounding cast and system they play in. Advanced metrics point to Stockton as being a legitimately great PG… I don’t think he was “just” a compiler. And I think an argument can be made that a pass-first, second, and third PG might be what you want with a team loaded with offensive talent. He isn’t a horrible choice for the squad. I just think Magic has him bested and while an argument can be made that Stockton is a superior selection for the team, it won’t convince me if it is based on career counting totals.
I’m also too young to remember Isaiah in his prime, but I get the sense he was too me-first relative to the guys being discussed. A team with the offensive power we’re discussing needs a PG who is a-okay taking no shots. I think Magic and Stockton would accept that role; I’m not sure Zeke would. I’m reminded of JKidd’s role on some of the recent Olympic squads, where he took something like 7 shots in 8 games or whatever.
You know what’s really funny about this?
I read “John *Starks*.” I even thought that’s what I wrote.
Nothing wrong with John *Stockton* as a pick. Was I drinking?
You cut me just now Cahalan – you cut me deep. You saw John Starks, and didn’t once think, “Sam seems smarter than that.” Nope.
Kevin Durant is going to be destroyed at the 4 on the defensive end. He plays at the 3, and that’s where he should be, but since Lebron is a better all around player (by the time he’s done, Durant may turn out to be the best pure scorer to ever play the game), I think you’d have to go with Lebron at SF.
My 5, by the way, would be Magic, Jordan, Lebron, Barkley, and Wilt the Stilt.
I can’t imagine the idea that Jordan wasn’t a good team player can survive one number: 6. Teams win championships. It is true that when the Bulls sucked, and Jordan was taking too many shots, he wasn’t a good team player, but when the Bulls started winning, he played a team game.
The Bulls worked because it was MJ, his wingman, and a bunch of role players. He never played with anyone he had to consider an equal, and I’m not at all sure he could. Well, the Dream Team, but that was a series of silly blowouts.
This is true of most superstars, though, and superstars win championships. The Lakers and Celtics of the 80s may be exceptions, because they had more than one genuine superstar each, but for the most part, champions are composed of a superstar, a good to great second, and role players.
But we’re putting together a team to face a bunch of aliens with humanity on the line. We’re looking to create a team, not a fantasy team. There’s a large, significant difference. If you get alpha dogs like Jordan or Bryant, you’re going to disrupt any concept of team, because they need to be deferred to.
Stockton, we know, isn’t in it for the glory. He’s barely been seen since leaving basketball, despite being arguably its greatest guard. Oscar Robertson will contribute all over the court. LeBron will do the same, and from anywhere. Durant’s the scorer of scorers, but also capable of of deferring (see the bullshit he suffers with that idiot Westbrook). Bill Russell’s commitment to team should never be questioned.
Who would ever make the argument that Stockton was the greatest guard? And if his devotion to team was so important to winning, why couldn’t he beat Jordan and the Bulls?
Well I certainly would, given that he owns the assists record by 4000+ more than his nearest rival, that he also ball-hawked better than anybody else in NBA history, that he rarely turned the ball over, and that he never got injured. It isn’t his fault that the Utah Jazz drafted him, and it isn’t his fault that the Utah Jazz didn’t win titles, and trust me, this is coming from somebody who is hardly a fan of Utah anything.
And again, Jordan’s teams worked because he was the Alpha Dog and everybody recognized it; I’m not sure how he’d handle a scenario in which everybody else on the court was far better than Luc Longley. Remember that we’re talking about guys at the peak of their powers. The famous stories of Bird and Magic and Jordan on Team USA – the ones where Jordan forcibly took the crown from them – featured Bird and Magic in the waning moments of their career. Put a top-notch Bird and a top-notch Magic on the court with a top-notch Jordan and I’m not sure you wouldn’t sew the seeds of discontent almost immediately.
Meanwhile, while they’re all jawing at each other, Bill Russell is standing under the basket, enjoying the fact that he won as many titles as both of them combined.
Stockton’s assists total is as much a function of health, longevity, and playing time as it is of talent, none of which matter much in a single winner-takes-all game.
Magic averaged 11.2 APG to Stockton’s 10.5. That isn’t a perfect comparison because Magic never saw the downside of his career and it doesn’t account for playing style (I think arguments could be made that both players are slighted/benefited by their team’s respective playing style) but it shows that the gap between them isn’t what the counting stats suggest.
Stockton is not a horrible choice and as a pass-first point guard, he might be exactly what you want with a team full of scorers. But, please, let’s not pretend he was the best guard ever, or even the best point guard.
Stockton’s assist total is a function of refs never calling offensive fouls on Karl Malone as he kicked defenders out of the way on his drives to the rim.
James,
That is almost certainly not how the NBA calculates assists.
Kazzy,
Perhaps we should simply agree to disagree? I think we’re looking for different things from a floor general.
Well sure, but where is the fun in that… 🙂
Sam,
Call the foul on Malone and the basket gets waved off, hence no assist for Stockton. I’m not knocking Stockton, mind, he’s indisputably one of the greats. But every time he passed to Malone as the Mailman was driving to the basket Malone would go up and kick his leg out at the defender.
Every superstar in the NBA seems to be granted one special foul that won’t be called on them. Malone’s was the kick. Shaq’s was the shoulder-into-the-defender’s-chest that on anyone else was an offensive foul. MJ’s was the pushoff, most famously against Reggie Miller and Brian Westbrook. Reggie had his own special dispensation, not a foul, but he and only he was allowed to shuffle his feet before every three pointer without getting called for traveling. Just one of the many reasons the NBA is the worst professional sport in America.
If you don’t push off against Brian Westbrook, he’ll rush for 1000 yards.
Or maybe it was Brian Russell.
Oddly, I don’t even know much about Westbrook. Had to look him up to even remember who he played for (ugh).
Oh, I must have seen the reference to Russell Westbrook above, and gotten the names all mixed together. It’s not my fault, really. I’d never make such a mistake without some external cause (now, if I can just figure out a plausible one to blame….my daughters! They distracted me. Yeah, nobody at the League will see thought that.).
You don’t know who Brian Westbrook is…? 🙁
That is, Bryon Russell (you did avoid the common trap of calling him “Byron”).
James,
I love the NBA. There may literally exist NO common ground between us.
Sam,
Do you like Fear’s “New York’s All Right?” I’m reaching for straws to find common ground here….. 😉
*Listens To Song*
I’m not even sure what I’m listening to.
How about spaghetti and meatballs with friends and family around the table? Do we share an enjoyment of that?
As long as we’re sure to include the meatballs, yes.
But we’ll probably argue over whether they should be made of beef or sausage or (correct answer) both.
Both is the correct answer! Meatballstroika has been achieved!
Hallelujah. Next up is teaching you to appreciate punk. With meatballs and punk, who cares about politics or sports?
Also, I’m changing my center to Shaq. At his peak, he was unstoppable in a way that I don’t think any player, even Jordan, has ever been. He’s also the one of two players on my list, Barkley being the other, whom I saw play. I saw them both in college, Barkley when I was really young, and Shaq twice as a teenager. Both in Memorial Gym. My Dad’s seats were behind one of the baskets, and I remember watching the whole backboard shake for an unbelievably long period after a dunk.
I’m not sure if Barkley brings anything unique enough for such a competition. He was a great player, no doubt, and if often my default response for “Best PF Ever”, though that response is unfairly skewed by my age. I just don’t think he does anything really special. Also, Duncan has simply carved out a better career, not that that is necessarily relevant to the question.
Is there any way to measure team dynamic? Sir Charles sure had some serious role mode on his way up. With Dr. J and Moses Malone on the court with him, the Sixers were a steamroller.
IIRC, Kobe comes in as Michael Jordan is going out. Another killer combo. And there’s the role of coaches to consider. That’s always been my problem with Fantasy Anything: it doesn’t encompass superior combinations of talent.